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Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #290831 06/06/08 03:58 PM
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Edward Yong Offline
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I just realised their mitres have no crosses atop them!

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Edward Yong] #290945 06/07/08 05:17 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Presumably the reason is that they were not Metropolitans when the photographs were taken.

Fr. Serge

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #290960 06/07/08 06:58 PM
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Etnick Offline
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Don't all Eastern bishops have crosses on their mitres? The only mitres I've seen without crosses are worn by mitred archpriests.

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Etnick] #290981 06/07/08 11:10 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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The usage of the Russian Church (Patriarchate of Moscow) and bodies historically related to the Russian Church was/is that only Metropolitans (and the Patriarch, of course) wear a cross on the mitre. In 1988, to mark the millennium of the Baptism of Kyivan Rus', the Russian Orthodox hierarchy awarded themselves the cross on the mitre, regardless of rank. This earth-shaking decision affected only the Moscow Patriarchate.

When the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and the Moscow Patriarchate found it possible to reconcile with each other, Patriarch Alexis noticed at the reconciliation Divine Liturgy that of the Hierarchs of the Church Outside Russia, only Metropolitan Laurus was wearing a Cross on his mitre. The Patriarch asked Metropolitan Laurus to extend this to all the hierarchs. The Metropolitan replied that it was up to the Council of Hierarchs, but he would tell that that it was the Patriarch's wish. I don't know what eventually happened.

The Old-Ritualists, of course, retain the older usage.

Fr. Serge

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #291008 06/08/08 06:19 AM
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Thanks for the explanation. However, all Eastern Catholic bishops I've seen in person and pictured all had a cross on the mitre, as well as any Orthodox bishop I've seen in the USA.

The mitred archpriests are the only ones I've seen without crosses. The cross is reserved for the episcopate. The top hole in the mitre of a priest is plugged with an icon instead.

It's also interesting to note that the Ruthenian BCC has recently started the practice of mitred archpriests, but the OCA doesn't do it anymore. Too much confusion with the bishop and a priest both wearing the same hat. biggrin

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #291019 06/08/08 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
The usage of the Russian Church (Patriarchate of Moscow) and bodies historically related to the Russian Church was/is that only Metropolitans (and the Patriarch, of course) wear a cross on the mitre. In 1988, to mark the millennium of the Baptism of Kyivan Rus', the Russian Orthodox hierarchy awarded themselves the cross on the mitre, regardless of rank. This earth-shaking decision affected only the Moscow Patriarchate.

When the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and the Moscow Patriarchate found it possible to reconcile with each other, Patriarch Alexis noticed at the reconciliation Divine Liturgy that of the Hierarchs of the Church Outside Russia, only Metropolitan Laurus was wearing a Cross on his mitre. The Patriarch asked Metropolitan Laurus to extend this to all the hierarchs. The Metropolitan replied that it was up to the Council of Hierarchs, but he would tell that that it was the Patriarch's wish. I don't know what eventually happened.

The Old-Ritualists, of course, retain the older usage.

Fr. Serge


All the post-May 17, 2007 pictures of vested ROCOR hierarchs that I've seen show them wearing mitres with crosses. Check out the picture-rich ROCOR website (www.synod.com)

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Fr Mark] #291020 06/08/08 01:46 PM
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Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #291021 06/08/08 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
The usage of the Russian Church (Patriarchate of Moscow) and bodies historically related to the Russian Church was/is that only Metropolitans (and the Patriarch, of course) wear a cross on the mitre. In 1988, to mark the millennium of the Baptism of Kyivan Rus', the Russian Orthodox hierarchy awarded themselves the cross on the mitre, regardless of rank. This earth-shaking decision affected only the Moscow Patriarchate.



But don't the Greeks do so as well? I think the MP was just aligning with Greek usage.

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: asianpilgrim] #291076 06/09/08 06:04 AM
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C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY!

Any insight on the "Muscovite" cut of the phelon?


Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Mykhayl] #291097 06/09/08 02:09 PM
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I think the conical phelonia are called "Athonite" phelonia. I've heard that the Greek phelonion is tailored (or should be), while the Athonite is more like one-size-fits-all, because of all of the priest turnover on Mount Athos -- this vestment has become popular with the Russians it seems.

If you want to learn a ton about vestments, check out Khouria Krista West's website and listen to her podcast on Ancient Faith Radio. She's a very informal speaker but seems to know quite a bit about vestments and liturgical garb, and their history and proper usage: http://www.kwvestments.com/

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #291231 06/10/08 09:39 AM
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Fr Mark Offline
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Fr. Mark,

The first two and last bishops are wearing a long vestment with the schema Cross on it from their poyas rather than thigh-shields. Can you explain what this vestment is and if it is peculiar to the Old Rite?

Fr. Deacon Lance


The poyas used by Old Ritualists have four pendant strips, two on each hip. This is what you can see on the photographs.

Scroll down on http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/1160909/page15.shtml

Only metropolitans have crosses on their mitres and only hierarchs have icons on them, so you can tell an archpriest's or archimandrite's mitre from a bishop's.

Only the palitza is used in Old Rite Orthodox (not the nabedrenik). If worn with the phelon, it hangs from the poyas by a loop and with the sakos it is attached to a button at the waist level.

The phelon is used by a bishop for simple celebrations or often when travelling, something which Old Believer bishops with large scattered, persecuted flocks have had to do.

The shape of the Russian phelon allowed it to be worn over bulky fur lined cassocks in the past and was, of course, warmer in drafty temples. Many Old Believer priests wear the phelon with a lower back than contemporary New Rite vestments, though the lipovany in Romania seem to wear higher backs than their brethren in Russia. Old Believer phelony are not Athonite in design and should have buttons and loops, so that the front can be raised to leave the hands clear.

Episcopal poruchy usually have small butoons and loops, rather than cords.

Spasi Khristos - Mark, unworthy monk.

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Fr Mark] #291290 06/10/08 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr Mark


The poyas used by Old Ritualists have four pendant strips, two on each hip. This is what you can see on the photographs.

Spasi Khristos - Mark, unworthy monk.


dear and reverend Father Mark,

what does it mean these fascinating four pendant strips on the Poyas?


Herb

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: domilsean] #291310 06/10/08 09:31 PM
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Are you sure that the "high-back" phelon comes from Athos? I was always under the impression that it was the other way around: its stiffed back is in keeping with baroque tailoring -- not really popular in remote and West-hating Athos, but surprisingly popular in French-speaking aristocratic Sankt Peterburg.

The explanation I heard, which makes sense, was that it came from Eastern Ukraine and Central Russia. Then, when the Tsars began donating to all of Orthodoxy around the world they ended up giving vestments to monasteries on Athos in the "high-back" style. That's also why you only find them in important monasteries and most of them are really, really old -- because they didn't make them themselves and there are no more Tsars to send them any.

In any case, the original cut of all phelonia was more "one-size-fits-all" since it was more loose fitting around the neck and the length was variable because of the folding of the phelon at various parts of the liturgy. That's why I would be surprised that Athos would go to all the trouble of starching/stiffening/changing their phelonia when their's were fine...unless someone was willing to give them a nicer one for free.

However, I could be wrong, but I would like to see it in print and I don't see anything on the "Opinionated Tailor's" site or Ancient Faith.

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Daniil] #291328 06/11/08 12:44 AM
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She talks about the Athonite Phelon in one of the early podcasts on vestments. Definitely one before March 16.

Re: Bishop's Vestments [Re: Logos - Alexis] #291712 06/14/08 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis


It'd be great to get some pictures in here of bishops vested without sakkos.

Alexis


Here you are. This is Bishop Mercury of New York (MP) celebrating the Liturgy of St. James:

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/zadmin_data/foto.image/6431.jpg

smile

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