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I guess I understand where Diak is coming from on this, but I do not think he really addressed the underlying issues.

The fact that wounds have healed doesn't mean there were no wounds. The fact that Kyr Yaroslav (and his brother bishops) may have accepted the intervention of Patriarch Yosyf (assuming they really had a choice) doesn't mean that the intervention was justified. And the fact that monocultural parish "islands" have been erected, at not insignificant expense, does not mean that the needs of God's people have been met more effectively in Chicago, DC or elsewhere than they might have been had vibrant, multi-cultural parishes been preserved and strengthened. In a multicultural society, cultural ghettos makes no more sense than racial ones.

A further thought: If we really sccept the idea of collegiality, it ought to be applied to difficult situations as well as ones where there is unanimity. It is always tempting to haul in the big guns in support of 'our' side of an issue. Why wasn't the Patriarchal (or even local eparchial) "firepower" brought in, around the same time as the events in Chicago were going on, to support the efforts of non-Ukrainian speakers for greater use of English? Or is it true, as one UGC eparch put it to me, that "we only take care of our own"?

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In another thread that I initiated, I had mentioned how the Eparchy of Toronto registered an unbelievable drop from 80,000 to 10,866 faithful.

Isn't this also the only UGCC Eparchy in Canada and the USA which is predominantly Julian Calendar and which has vibrant parishes like St. Elias?

I really can't reconcile the two sides of the situation.

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In another thread that I initiated, I had mentioned how the Eparchy of Toronto registered an unbelievable drop from 80,000 to 10,866 faithful.

Isn't this also the only UGCC Eparchy in Canada and the USA which is predominantly Julian Calendar and which has vibrant parishes like St. Elias?


That is obviously a typing error. I live in Toronto but am Ukrainian Orthodox. I see no signs of such a drop. All the immigrants I meet are from Halychyna and are Ukrainian Catholics,so the 4th wave is making an impact too as well as Canadian born Ukrainians There is also a Ukrainian-Catholic elementary school system training or rather educating the next generation.

Why on earth do you think St. Elias in Brampton is "vibrant". It is such a small parish.
Tim, I really can't understand many of your comments. In Toronto with public funded Ukrainian-Catholic schools, a host of other "ridnyy shkoly", so many Ukrainian organizations for youth and even a host of Ukrainian-language nursery school, why on earth would either Ukrainian Catholic or Ukrainian Orthodox want to have services in English.

We are not Americans. Canada is the land of multicuturalism and some families have been here for over 100 years and think of themselves as Ukrainian-Canadians. Canada has the largest diaspora outside Ukraine. I like other parents here in Toronto went to a lot of effort to make sure my 2 sons learned Ukrainian and were and are active in our local Ukrainian-Canadian community. Even at university there is an active Ukrainian Students club. We live a Ukrainian-Canadian life.

The world is changing. Globalization is here and making an impact all over the world. In Europe children start learning other languages in public school. Notice I said languages not just one language.
I started learning French here in Toronto in public school and all through high school. French was compulsory when I was a student. I also took German in high school. It is really too late to start learning another language in University, although I admire those adults who try. The more languages a person knows the better.

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"Why on earth do you think St. Elias in Brampton is "vibrant". It is such a small parish."

Granted, it's a beautiful church. But there seems to be a lot of hype associated with this parish. How many people actually attend this church?

What I don't understand is why is this parish so "Uniquely Eastern" with no pews, priests with mitres, etc, and everywhere else in the UCC it's business as usual? (Recited Liturgies?)

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Originally Posted by Etnick
"Why on earth do you think St. Elias in Brampton is "vibrant". It is such a small parish."

Granted, it's a beautiful church. But there seems to be a lot of hype associated with this parish. How many people actually attend this church?

What I don't understand is why is this parish so "Uniquely Eastern" with no pews, priests with mitres, etc, and everywhere else in the UCC it's business as usual? (Recited Liturgies?)


I guess St. Elias (and Annunciation in Illinois) fulfil the same function in the Byzantine-rite Catholic churches in North America, that parishes such as St. John Cantius (Chicago), Our Lady of Lourdes (Philadelphia) and the Toronto Oratory have in the Roman Catholic Church in the USA and Canada. These churches represent the liturgical "ideal" towards which other parishes are exhorted to strive.

By definition, there aren't so many of these model liturgical oases.

However, is it just St. Elias which is "uniquely Eastern" or completely "Vostochnik"? I always thought that such parishes are increasing (rather than decreasing) among Ukrainians and Melkites.


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Originally Posted by Miller
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In another thread that I initiated, I had mentioned how the Eparchy of Toronto registered an unbelievable drop from 80,000 to 10,866 faithful.


That is obviously a typing error.


While I, too, do not believe that there has been a decline of the sort suggested by those numbers, I wouldn't go as far as suggesting a typing error. What if the new Eparch decided to use as his total the sum of the number of dues paying adults (plus any minor children) reported to him - without assuming any figure for parishes that did not report? He may well have come up with 10,866. This would be the most conservative figure, one not based on any assumtions. I attempted to estimate such a total for the six Montreal parishes and came up with 1050 +/- 200 (guessing other parish numbers based on my parish's). Would anyone here care to venture a similar guess based on their knowledge of Metropolitan Toronto (or any other city with a sizeable Ukrainian population, for that matter)?

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Knowing the Eparchy of Toronto fairly well, I would suspect that any number that might be submitted is based on guess-work. Not only is there no scientific effort at determining numbers (although there are various ways of guessing, including Canadian census figures), there is also - and this is the Vatican's fault - no definition of just who is to be considered a parishioner. The parish priests are likely to have a clearer idea of who their parishioners are, but they will almost invariably offer a number of families, rather than a number of souls.

On Pascha, seven weeks ago, we had an attendance of well over 1,100 people. This past Sunday we had between sixty and seventy. This coming Sunday is Pentecost, so I would expect more than this past Sunday, but a lot fewer than on Pascha. Any suggestions as to how I should count the number of parishioners? So far I've done over 155 Baptisms.

Hence it simply is not easy to determine an accurate number without sufficient guidance.

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by Roman
Originally Posted by Miller
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In another thread that I initiated, I had mentioned how the Eparchy of Toronto registered an unbelievable drop from 80,000 to 10,866 faithful.


That is obviously a typing error.


While I, too, do not believe that there has been a decline of the sort suggested by those numbers, I wouldn't go as far as suggesting a typing error. What if the new Eparch decided to use as his total the sum of the number of dues paying adults (plus any minor children) reported to him - without assuming any figure for parishes that did not report? He may well have come up with 10,866. This would be the most conservative figure, one not based on any assumtions. I attempted to estimate such a total for the six Montreal parishes and came up with 1050 +/- 200 (guessing other parish numbers based on my parish's). Would anyone here care to venture a similar guess based on their knowledge of Metropolitan Toronto (or any other city with a sizeable Ukrainian population, for that matter)?


Given that 6 Montreal parishes have 1,050 +/- 200

And there are 65 parishes in the Eparchy of Toronto

If one grants that the 6 Montreal parishes would account for about 1/11 of the entire eparchial population, then one comes up with 11,550, +/- 2,200. Not very far from 10,866

But then, I'm just guessing.

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Reclaiming ones 'Eastern heritage' is a tricky business. There are many UGCC members, particularly the older crowd, who see 'de-Latinizing' as an attack on religion in general. Removing Stations of the Cross or other symbols of latinization is on par with Communism with many of these older members who can't intellectually understand the need for returning to our Eastern traditions. Delatinization is taking place in most parishes, but there is resistance. I would ask Roman to visit the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary UGCC parish in Montreal and ask when the Stations of the Cross were put up and by whose suggestions. You may be surprised

Clinging to the old calendar had much more to do with patriotism than anything else. For example, those UGCC members who had family in Soviet Ukraine felt it very important to celebrate Christmas on the same day as their families did. I remember my parents and grandparents listening to the CBC Radio International 'Julian' Christmas eve broadcast which was transmitted into Ukraine every January 6th and 7th. When I asked them why they were crying during the program they said because it reminded them of the people and the 'troubles' they left behind the Iron Curtain. They were keenly aware of the 'Underground UGC Church' (Carpathian Rus included) and considered it treasonous to have abandoned their people and church for convenience sake (ie: moving Christmas to December 25, 2008). Solidarity with the persecuted UGCC was the number one reason they insisted on remaining on the old calendar.

Quebec's parishes including those in Montreal, Rouyn-Noranda, and Val D'or have lost significantly more members (as a percent of the total) than those in the province of Ontario. Simply put, Quebec's 40 year old French separatist movement has driven significant numbers of young UGCC members to other North American regions - including Ontario. The problem is further compounded by the fact that prospective UGCC immigrants are aware of the near facist social policies of the French separatists and as such will only select Quebec if they are rejected as immigrants to other Canadian regions. Many who do immigrate to Quebec use it as a 'springboard' to eventually migrate to other regions of Canada. In fact, there is a very active Toronto based Ukrainian Canadian organization which has an annual picnic to remember the 'old country' - Quebec. Last year they had nearly 400 people attend their picnic without much advertizing. The prognosis for Quebec's UGCC parishes is not good. Most urban churches in Ontario are vibrant and many have multiple divine services on Sundays. Some of the smaller parish churches such as those in Kenora, Thunder Bay, and other remote regions are not doing as well.

Miller is right, Canadian celebrate multilingualism whereas Americans - don't.


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Originally Posted by Miller
Canada has the largest diaspora outside Ukraine.


OK, I'll bite.

How large is the Ukrainian diaspora inside Ukraine?

smile

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There actually is an "internal diaspora" but I've not encountered any figures.

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria


"Holy Ukrainian National Autocephalic Orthodox
Church in Exile"

The name of this group alone should be a clue!

They are[b] not
canonical! [/b]

Stay away!

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I am usually up on Ukrainian Orthodox history but have never heard of this group. The names of priests to me seem to be Greek surnames.
Their list of apostolic succcession here:
http://www.ukrainianorthodoxchurchinexile.org/book/scan/elijah.gif

proves nothing or rather proves that this group people with Greek surnames do not have appostolic succession.
Who is Peter Zurawetzky=Souris????

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Zurawetsky was a spin-off from the Living Church (the one in Russia, not the PECUSA magazine); don't know if he had any followers, in either sense. File and Forget.

Fr. Serge

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