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Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Logos - Alexis] #292150 06/18/08 04:35 AM
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lanceg Offline
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I have been reflecting this week on how we are all sinners. I do not say this glibly, to casually dismiss the sins of President Bush or anyone else. Jesus says that the angels rejoice over one who repents more than 99 who need no repentance. And I am obligated to pray for the President, whether I voted for him or not.

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: lanceg] #292154 06/18/08 08:04 AM
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Alice Offline
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Every President of recent memory has had to make choices and decisions that are difficult, choices which were sometimes wrong, and sometimes right, depending on one's point of view...

Some decisions of the last *16* years of memory would have been: to bomb Serbia, (without ceasefire during ORthodox Easter despite the calls from worldwide Orthodox leaders for that one concession), to liberate Iraq from a brutal dictator, (whether or not it was a good decision in retrospect, did he really do something so bad in that--AND I remind those who are calling him a 'war monger' that he had the FULL, unequivocal support of the Clintons and other democrats who said that the intelligence was without flaw), to support late term abortion, to fight against late term abortion...

Obviously some choices will seem more sinful than others, but it seems that in the passions of partisan and/or personality politics, that can often be subjective.

Personally, I think that the comments I have heard made about President Bush in person and in the written press are unfair. In Europe, all you hear is 'Bush' this and 'Bush' that...

Let's not forget the horror of 9/11, and that he saw us through the only attack this country has ever seen on its mainland. Since that time, we have not seen another attack, and he has had to make difficult choices in how to protect our motherland against terrorism. Glory to God, many attacks have been thwarted and we have enjoyed seven years of safety in the skies and on the ground from the enemy. I think that people overlook this.

He has also done what he could to protect life, prevent stem cell research from embryos, and to express that sacredness of marriage should be between a man and a woman.

I respect his genuine commitment to Jesus Christ, I respect his spirituality, I respect the admiration he has for the Pope and for what he stands for, I respect his admirable marriage and the woman who he calls his wife, and I respect his family life and his personal life .

I respect the friendliness and kindness he shows to all people--fellow politicians and fellow citizens, people who he serves and people who serve him. I respect the respectability he brought back to the White House and to the workplace of the White House. I respect that he has done nothing in his personal life to scandalize us.

I think that the graciousness of character which we see in him (and his family) is a dying breed of old American values, and I lament its demise and its the contempt the American people of today seem to have for it.

Personally, I think that all that I have heard against him is not necessarily because of the war in Iraq, (surely past presidents have made worst choices when it came to war), but because he is a Christian, and people, in today's world, hate that.

People today seem to prefer charisma over character. The Presidency has been reduced to Hollywood like standards, and it seems that 'all powerful' Hollywood now has the power to influence how we judge a President. Yet, Hollywood values are amongst the most sinful values seen since the days of Ancient Rome--and ones which they have spread like a cancer to the rest of the world. Infact, this is one of the reasons the 'terrorist enemy' hates us.

President Bush is a man of faith, and I thank him for bringing the old fashioned respectability of family and values back into the White House. I pray for him and his family, and may God be the judge of the choices he has had to make as the most powerful leader of the world.

One need only live in Europe to see how humble his Christianity is in comparison to most of the leaders there. That makes me proud to be an American--to show European leaders (and men, in general) that one CAN be successful AND be a devoted spiritual person with old fashioned values(no sexual affairs on the side, etc.) at the same time. I remember his father being interviewed by Greek television during a trip there after his Presidency. He spent considerable time talking about how important his Christian faith was to him. That is something which is almost unheard of in Europe.

Ofcourse these were just my opinions, but not being able to express them anywhere for many years without being attacked, I thought I would offer them as a farewell tribute to the President. I like him alot, but more importantly, I respect him and I thank him for his leadership.

In Christ,
Alice



Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Alice] #292156 06/18/08 08:46 AM
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ebed melech Offline OP
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Alice,

Amen.

Gordo

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Alice] #292162 06/18/08 12:07 PM
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Michael McD Offline
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Alice,

Amen.

Michael

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Michael McD] #292170 06/18/08 02:46 PM
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From which sect does President Bush come from?

I am pretty sure that if he converted in Mexico, he would be received in the Catholic Church by Baptism, as it's the common practice when American Protestants convert (when they marry a Mexican spouse for example).

Some Protestant baptisms are regarded as acceptable, those coming from some Anglican, Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches. I learnt this when I did my social service working for a Catholic Diocese.

However, I have read that in the United States the RC is more liberal and they even receive other Protestants by Chrismation.

Would he be received by Baptism?

Last edited by Mexican; 06/18/08 02:47 PM.
Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Mexican] #292175 06/18/08 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mexican
From which sect does President Bush come from?

I am pretty sure that if he converted in Mexico, he would be received in the Catholic Church by Baptism, as it's the common practice when American Protestants convert (when they marry a Mexican spouse for example).

Some Protestant baptisms are regarded as acceptable, those coming from some Anglican, Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches. I learnt this when I did my social service working for a Catholic Diocese.

However, I have read that in the United States the RC is more liberal and they even receive other Protestants by Chrismation.

Would he be received by Baptism?


Let's just assume that Pres. Bush is converting. (The press reports are merely conjectures!)

Pres. Bush and his wife, Laura, are Methodists but they attend an Anglican Church in Washington, D.C.

The Catholic Church believes in only ONE baptism. Any trinitarian baptism outside of the Catholic Church is accepted as valid. If doubt persists, a convert is baptized conditionally.

Baptism in the Methodist Church, as our own Logos-Alexis will attest, is trinitarian and it is, therefore, considered by the Catholic Church as valid.

Accordingly, Pres. Bush will not be re-baptized IF he does convert to the Catholic Church.

Amado


Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Amadeus] #292185 06/18/08 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Amadeus
Baptism in the Methodist Church, as our own Logos-Alexis will attest, is trinitarian and it is, therefore, considered by the Catholic Church as valid.

Accordingly, Pres. Bush will not be re-baptized IF he does convert to the Catholic Church.

Amado

My father is a United Methodist minister. In my youth (the late 1960's or early 1970's) I witnessed him 'baptise' two baby girls with earth, wind, fire, and water. For the last couple decades my father would never baptise anyone in the name of "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," but instead 'baptises' in the name of "the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sustainer." By the way, the Baptismal Certificates he fills out and gives to the parents (which are printed by a Methodist publishing house) still say "This child, N., was Baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

I don't trust Protestant 'baptisms' for this reason. Check, double check, and baptise at least conditionally.

Fr David Straut


Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Fr David Straut] #292188 06/18/08 04:51 PM
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Michael McD Offline
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Fr. David,

Interesting personal experience. And we have "Catholics" doing similar things unfortunately.

Re Pres. Bush, though, I think he was probably originally baptized by the Episcopal Church, since the Bushes are originally Episcopalians, I think, and I would guess that they probably used the traditional formula when he was young.

The point is the same, however, as you make clear: only certainty where the sacraments are concerned.

Michael

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Amadeus] #292192 06/18/08 05:00 PM
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What they call "baptism" in the Methodist Church may not be valid according to the Catholic Church because many Methodist ministers "baptize" by saying whatever they want, here is one example:
Originally Posted by http://www.brdwyumc.org/content/view/47/51/
Liturgist: We baptize you in the name of God, our Father and Mother, our Holy Parent. We baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ, our Redeemer. And we baptize you in the name of the Holy Spirit, our Sustainer.

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Alice] #292197 06/18/08 05:23 PM
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Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance



Last edited by lanceg; 06/18/08 05:23 PM.
Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: lanceg] #292198 06/18/08 05:28 PM
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Not only the war Lance, many underhanded and shady dealings are revealed and being on a daily basis - most from first-hand accounts of Republican Administration insiders.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=173526&title=david-iglesias&to=2


Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: lanceg] #292202 06/18/08 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance




Dear Lance,

I don't want to "escalate" this business, but in defense of what Alice said, Pres. Bush, with the approval of the Senate, declared war on the regime of Hussein. Whether or not it was "unjust" or "unnecessary" remains a matter of opinion, now pretty much opinions benefitting from hindsight. Yes, the Pope and others were against it, but at the time I tried to find out if the Pope had truly "condemned" going to war against Hussein, because my brother told me he had. We looked and couldn't actually find anything specific. So I think Alice's contextualization is rather accurate.

In Christ,
Michael



Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Mexican] #292203 06/18/08 05:43 PM
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Mexican
From which sect does President Bush come from?

I am pretty sure that if he converted in Mexico, he would be received in the Catholic Church by Baptism, as it's the common practice when American Protestants convert (when they marry a Mexican spouse for example).

Some Protestant baptisms are regarded as acceptable, those coming from some Anglican, Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches. I learnt this when I did my social service working for a Catholic Diocese.

However, I have read that in the United States the RC is more liberal and they even receive other Protestants by Chrismation.

Would he be received by Baptism?


Anybody who has been baptized with water, in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirt, is considered baptized and therefore, not in need for Baptism.

Such a person is received into full communion with the Catholic Church by a profession of faith, probably Confirmation and Eucharist. These people may need to receive the sacrament of Reconciliation as well.

Othodox Christians who have been baptized and chrismated are received in the same way, but I don't think they are re-Confirmed.

I am not sure if President Bush has been Baptized. Not all Methodists baptize their infant children. Some opt for a "christening" rite without the use of water, and therefore, this would not be a valid baptism.

And if the rumors are true, I would certainly pray that Mr. Bush's conversion is sincere and that he does leave behind his war-loving tendencies he has shown so far.

And if his spiritual enlightment could come together with some of the more regular, humand kind, that would not hurt either.

Shalom,
Memo

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Memo Rodriguez] #292205 06/18/08 06:11 PM
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First, let us pray that the Lord is leading President Bush towards full membership in the Catholic Church.

Second, a discussion about the justness or unjustness of the effort to liberate the Iraqi people is more appropriate to another thread. If one reads closely what the Holy Father, Pope John Paul the Great, stated (and not the biased account reported in most of the media) it amounts to an agreement that the conditions for the war were just but that even just wars must be avoided. One can support the effort in Iraq and remain in good standing with the Catholic Church just as one can oppose the effort in Iraq and be in good standing with the Catholic Church.

Thirdly, I highly recommend to all not to consider entertainment websites as legitimate sources of news. It is usually best to obtain information from all sources, both liberal and conservative, both domestic and international before forming conclusions (avoiding the sheer entertainment stuff). [Overall, Alice's summary above is quite accurate.]

Interesting, President Bush is hated viscerally by many on the political left. And so was President Reagan at the same point in his term. If the Iraqis do succeed in establishing a constitutional democracy (I give them a 50/50 chance at this point) then it is possible that history will judge President Bush as fondly as it now judges President Reagan.

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Michael McD] #292206 06/18/08 06:13 PM
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Dear Michael & Alice,

I do not think you are "escalating" things, we just discussing, and I respect your support of the president. I have not supported him politically, in the voting booth, but I support him as a person, and as our President, and pray for him each day.

I would hope that for Christians there would be a strong presumption against war. Yes, we benefit from hindsight, but, as I mentioned, our religious leaders were against the war at the time it was pending.

Michael Saliba's statement seems in particular very prophetic, in an Old Testament sense:
http://www.antiochian.org/news/Release20021009_Iraq.htm

STATEMENT ON IRAQ
While our country is on the brink of war with Iraq, it is the opinion of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America that our esteemed President and governmental leaders rethink their position and the logic behind this impending conflict. Such an attack will destabilize the entire region, cause untold harm to countless children and other civilians as well as bring political and social unrest to an already troubled area of the world.

It is our conviction that all United Nations resolutions must be implemented in a consistent and meaningful way. We must add that we find it hypocritical that Iraq is threatened with war and destruction for failing to comply with UN resolutions while another state in the same region is in violation of about seventy UN resolutions which have never been implemented. This continues to be a reality even as this state occupies land that does not belong to it, illegally expands and builds settlements on occupied territories and implements collective punishment on masses of innocent people because of the distorted actions of a few. We are fully aware that Saddam Hussein and his government have committed atrocious acts which are in violation of international law.

We are gravely concerned, however, that a war against Iraq will create even more chaos in the region. The overthrowing of the Iraqi government could cause the breakup of the country into warring factions for many years to come. In addition, the geo-political imbalance this war would cause in the area will take generations to repair. It is said that our government will “rebuild Iraq and help the people of Iraq to form a democratic government.” History has proven that this rarely comes to fruition. We need only look to the Balkans and Afghanistan as recent examples.

Therefore, we beseech our respected leaders and representatives and all those of good will to allow the United Nations inspectors to complete their mission. At the same time, we encourage our President and Congress to seek the difficult and tiresome road of peace rather than the bloody and dark road of war.
Issued by: Metropolitan PHILIP Saliba, Primate
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America


There are several other statements of course, by Orthodox and Catholic leaders, but I feel Metropolitan Saliba's was the most poignant and prophetic. And look at the last sentence: we encourage our President and Congress to seek the difficult and tiresome road of peace rather than the bloody and dark road of war. Isn't that the way of Christ?


As Christians, we should be peacemakers. We should resort to war only as a last tragic necessity, when no other means of resolution are viable. I do not think that was the case with Iraq at all.

I think that we Americans as a nation were to eager to go to war at the time; that our politicians were too cowardly in an election year to vote against the war, and that we were too much influenced by fear, after the awful events of 911, rather than by our faith in our God.

Blessings,

Lance

Last edited by lanceg; 06/18/08 06:17 PM.
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