The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Augoustinos, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5604 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (Elizanna, 1 invisible), 76 guests, and 439 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,747
Posts412,016
Members5,604
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Fr David Straut] #292260 06/19/08 06:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,180
Elizabeth Maria Offline
Orthodox Christian
Member
Offline
Orthodox Christian
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,180
Originally Posted by Fr David Straut

Dear Alexis,

Please call me Fr David. It is not proper in the Eastern Church to use the title "Father" with a surname.

I really have no doubt that either you or our President were christened with the proper words. You because admittedly the Methodist Church is quite a bit more conservative in the South and the President because of his age. But I assure you that Baptism in the name of "the Creator, and the Redeemer, and the Sustainer/Sanctifier" is not at all rare in the United Methodist Church. In the Northeast, the Left Coast, and the majority of the UMC's Theological Schools it is quite common.

But things may be deteriorating even in Dixie. I returned to the South for the funerals of my Grandfather, my Grandmother, and my Uncle, which were performed by my Father. He used 'inclusive' language exclusively in these funerals from Scripture Readings (making changes even to the NRSV), to the prayers, to the hymns. Nobody seemed to notice or bat an eyelash.

Say what you will about my Father's actions, but he is not a rare bird in his Denomination.

With warmest regards,

Fr David



I will pray for your father's conversion.

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Athanasius The L] #292264 06/19/08 07:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Alice Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
I doubt that there are many who despise President Bush more than I do. I believe that his moral failings are of a grave nature and that he has done a great disservice to our nation and to the world. Ryan


I felt that a former President had grave moral and ethical failings, that what went on in his administration were scandalous and corrupt, that he had done a great disservice to our nation and to the world in so many other decisions, debased the respectability of the White House, and yet I do not 'despise' him at all.

First of all, hatred is a sin, and secondly, I don't even know him! wink crazy wink

Alice

P.S. Ryan-before you get bent out of shape, please see the wink with my post--I am just teasing you. smile

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Alice] #292269 06/19/08 08:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,283
Athanasius The L Offline
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Offline
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,283
Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
I doubt that there are many who despise President Bush more than I do. I believe that his moral failings are of a grave nature and that he has done a great disservice to our nation and to the world. Ryan


I felt that a former President had grave moral and ethical failings, that what went on in his administration were scandalous and corrupt, that he had done a great disservice to our nation and to the world in so many other decisions, debased the respectability of the White House, and yet I do not 'despise' him at all.

First of all, hatred is a sin, and secondly, I don't even know him! wink crazy wink

Alice


Dear Alice:

I think you've missed the point of my post. What I was trying to stress is that I believe that my own beliefs and similar beliefs held by certain others concerning what they and I consider to be very serious sins on the part of President Bush are irrelevant with respect both to whether or not President Bush should be received into the Catholic Church and to whether or not President Bush is "worthy of salvation." The intent of my post was to give witness to the grace of God which ultimately triumphs over the judgment of man. It was for the sake of making that point that I stated that I believe President Bush's moral flaws to be of a very serious nature.

I would also add that to despise someone is not the same as hating that person, at least not in my mind. One definition of "despise," from Webster's College Dictionary is "to look down upon with contempt or scorn." This is the sense of the word "despise" that I have in mind whenever I say that I despise someone. I hate neither President Bush nor anyone else, and if I actually did hate him, I would use the word "hate" and not the word "despise."

Also, I think it is perfectly fair--based on a reading of quite a few posts on this forum--that we do indeed have a number of members who despise a number of politicians and I really don't see anything wrong with that. The conduct of so many politicians--Democrats and Republicans alike--invites contempt or scorn.

Furthermore, though I am a center to left-of-center Democrat, I'm not particulary troubled by those who continually bash many politicians from my party when they point to what they see as their serious moral failures--even in those cases when I don't necessarily agree with their assessments. Given the number of those members of this forum who often speak of Democratic politicians with no lack of contempt or scorn (and often without being rebuked), I don't think it's asking too much for those of us who are critical of President Bush to be allowed the same degree of freedom in expressing our opinions. But again, what I perceive to be the gravity of President Bush's failings wasn't really the point of my previous post.

Finally, I will reiterate what I was intending to stress in my last post. We are sinners and we all ultimately are accountable for our sins--not so much to each other, but to God our Father, whose mercy triumphs over the judgment of man.

In Christ,

Ryan

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Athanasius The L] #292271 06/19/08 08:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Alice Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Dear Ryan,

Again, as I said in my P.S., I was just teasing you! wink

(One usually teases another when one is fond of him/her..so please take this in the spirit it was given) smile

Alice smile

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: ebed melech] #292291 06/19/08 02:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Michael McD Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Hey Gordo,

(Continuing to pray for your upcoming ordination).


Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by Michael McD
Fr. David,

Interesting personal experience. And we have "Catholics" doing similar things unfortunately.

Re Pres. Bush, though, I think he was probably originally baptized by the Episcopal Church, since the Bushes are originally Episcopalians, I think, and I would guess that they probably used the traditional formula when he was young.

The point is the same, however, as you make clear: only certainty where the sacraments are concerned.

Michael


Michael,

Yes - there was a situation in Australia this past year where it was revealed that some priests at a parish were using the modalistic "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" nonsense. There were instructed to "re" baptize everyone using the proper Names of the HOly trinity according to Tradition and official Church teaching.

Why in the world such men remained priests and were not defrocked is beyond me. It is like a doctor amputating the wrong leg! Spiritual malpractice!

In ICXC,

Gordo


"Spiritual malpractice" indeed. And I wouldn't be surprised if this were going on on this "near side of the world" also. Unfortunately, there has been so much in the western Church for so many decades that it's easy to get jaded when you are "not involved" so to speak. But we really are involved, and all I can think of doing is prayer and penance.

In Christ,
Michael


Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Alice] #292302 06/19/08 03:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,283
Athanasius The L Offline
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Offline
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,283
Originally Posted by Alice
Dear Ryan,

Again, as I said in my P.S., I was just teasing you! wink

(One usually teases another when one is fond of him/her..so please take this in the spirit it was given) smile

Alice smile


Dear Alice:

I think I will have to quit reading the Forum at 3-4 AM. I didn't even see your P.S. Thank you for pointing that out.

Ryan

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Michael McD] #292316 06/19/08 04:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 773
lanceg Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 773
Kind of interesting, there are almost two sub-threads here, one about President Bush, and one about invalid baptism.

I am sure someone else has actually mentioned it, but there are unfortunately Catholic Churches that have used invalid baptismal forms as well. One of our priests at St. John's in Minneapolis had to re-baptize the children in one family, because they had been baptized in the Creator, Redeemer, & Sanctifier formula at a more liberal Catholic Parish.

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Mexican] #292333 06/19/08 08:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,133
Memo Rodriguez Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,133
Estimado Paisano,

Originally Posted by Mexican
Regarding the President's probable conversion, we all believe in One Baptism as long as it is a true baptism. In Mexico the Catholic Church does not recognize most Protestant baptisms as grace-giving, including that of the Methodists:

http://www.vicariadepastoral.org.mx/cardenal/directorio_sacramentos/apendice.htm


Maybe you need to re-red the link you sent us.

In it, it is clearly stated that the sacrament of baptism, administered by the Orthodox Churches and the "Historical" Protestant denominations, including the Methodists is generally considered valid. In the specific case of the Methodists, the Primatial Archidocese of Mexico considers it "in doubt", so Methodists are probably baptized conditionally there.

Shalom,
Memo

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Memo Rodriguez] #292378 06/20/08 02:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Slavipodvizhnik Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Many believe that President Bush saved America. I think that it would be great if he became a Catholic. It would be even better if he became Orthodox! I'd volunteer to be his Godfather!

Alexandr

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #292406 06/20/08 06:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Saved America? I think those 28% of Americans are the same ones who still believe the President's fantasy that Saddam had WMD and met Osama's henchman in Niger, and that this is the reason he sent our soldiers to Iraq. (These same 28% may overlap with the percentage of Americans who are considered "functionally illiterate".) grin

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #292408 06/20/08 07:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Alice Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Saved America? I think those 28% of Americans are the same ones who still believe the President's fantasy that Saddam had WMD and met Osama's henchman in Niger, and that this is the reason he sent our soldiers to Iraq. (These same 28% may overlap with the percentage of Americans who are considered "functionally illiterate".) grin


Dear Michael Thoma,

President Bush's 'fantasy' was shared by others. I will never forget the interview former Pres. Clinton and Sen. Hilary Clinton had on 'Larry King Live', a few weeks before we actually went to Iraq. I will never forget it because it was so shocking, to hear them unequivocally back President Bush's decision to go to war!

Infact, they said that during Mr. Clinton's term they had collected undeniable intelligence on Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, and that something had to be done about them!

I wish that people who like to listen to popular opinion and waffling politicians over research would give President Bush a break.

It would also be nice, whether, in retrospect, the decision was a good one or a bad one of our government, if we were to support the Iraqi people a little more, who are experiencing far more suffering than anybody can fathom, by offering them our silent prayers for success in their country, and by supporting our troops who are there giving their lives in helping them and protecting them.

Bad mouthing the President and the War does not serve this purpose, and only gives fuel to our many enemies throughout the world.

(..and trust me, those enemies and critics remain the same through Democratic terms and Republican terms of office, despite their claims which are often to the contrary)

Thank you.

Alice

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Alice] #292413 06/20/08 07:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Dear Alice,

I don't believe that disagreeing with or even badmouthing the President or any other politician gives fuel to our enemies, in my opinion, the enemy has won when Americans are too afraid to disagree or disparage how the President is doing his job.

All the research that I have read, from PBS to intelligence (e.g. Richard Clarke, Joseph Wilson, etc) to the insiders in the Administration reveals that the story that the Administration was repeating to the media and the UN Security Council was cooked up by the Administration themselves. Dick Cheney cited a bogus news story that was leaked without CIA approval (in fact, the CIA refused to substantiate the story so the VP's Office purposely leaked it) - Saddam's secret service meeting with high level al Qaeda in Niger about "yellow cake uranium". The story was then systematically repeated by Cheney all over the news, then picked up by Rumsfeld and repeated as fact - all the while, the CIA is repeating to the National Security Advisor that this meeting never occurred and is in fact bogus and cannot be trusted since it was taken from an unreliable source who was tortured by Egyptian intelligence. The story that was created by the VP's Office was then cited by the VP as fact and inserted into the President's State of the Union Address and then repeated by Colin Powell at the UN - with expressed disapproval of the CIA.


I cannot see how this was a mistake or oversight in any way, in my opinion, this Act was deliberate and systematic, not to mention illegal and the cause for an illegal and unnecessary war.

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #292414 06/20/08 07:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Alice Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
In retrospect, I agree this was a bad or misinformed decision, however, the former Administration and this Administration thought it was not at the time--for whatever reason. I do not support a war, I support the fact that it was done and that we should thank those who fought there and who serve there to help these people. The Middle East will probably never be stabilized, but let's hope that in the end, this effort will help.

Having lived in Europe off and on, and knowing many Europeans from various countries, I would like to tell you to trust me, we can do no right, (if we don't topple a government we are bad, if we do, again we are bad),and it doesn't matter whether our President was named Reagan, Bush or Clinton, or is a Democrat or a Republican!! I have heard and seen it all.

A house divided among itself will fall, and I do think that people in our country are getting a bit out of hand with this political anomosity thing.

Just as many did not support bombing Kosovo, but bit their lips about it in our country, I think the same should be done for the greater good right now...

So, let's support our young men and women and not turn them into ostracized vets in the style of Viet Nam, and let's pray that Iraq will succeed as a nation.Those poor people have suffered enough and no one in our spoiled nation seems to give a hoot about them.

Alice


Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Alice] #292415 06/20/08 08:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
I agree with you dear Alice. I am a former member of the military.

We as a nation have not done our fair share in taking in Iraqi refugees, I just read a report yesterday:

Syria 1.5million Iraqi refugees
Jordan 500,000 Iraqi refugees
Sweden 6000 Iraqi refugees
USA 3000 Iraqi refugees

3000??! That is a pathetic farse!

As to the bombings of Kosovo - I distinctly remember hearing how much of a villain Mr. Clinton was for doing that, as well as the airbombings of Baghdad (I distinctly remember right wing pundits - Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity - calling it a real-life 'Wag the Dog' scenario??)


Here's an article from 2004 regarding these claims:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/23/wag.dog/

Re: Bush Becoming a Catholic? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #292417 06/20/08 08:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Alice Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,910
Quote
As to the bombings of Kosovo - I distinctly remember hearing how much of a villain Mr. Clinton was for doing that, as well as the airbombings of Baghdad (I distinctly remember right wing pundits - Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity - calling it a real-life 'Wag the Dog' scenario??)


Perhaps. I stand corrected. I don't remember the average man on the street being as outraged, however. In any case...

Peace,
Alice

Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3