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C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY!

“against the many instances of exclusion I have witnessed because of un-Christian attitudes. Chief amongt these is the notion that one must be Ukrainian in order to worship in Ukrainian churches.” Quote Byzantine Latino

Was there a boarder guard checking passports at the door?

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Mykhayl,

I don't know if you are aware, but your header reads "Sava Isusu Xrustu", which is gibberish. Please either fix it or delete it, as it is quite annoying.

Alexandr

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Originally Posted by Mykhayl

Was there a boarder guard checking passports at the door?


Funnily enough, it seems that this was the case, because this happened to one of my closest friends the moment they walked into one of our churches. And, he's full-blooded Ukrainian, American born (non-Ukrainian speaking). And, he's a seminarian! His pastor, however, is great at stopping such behavior.
Passports are not needed, though, if the person isn't caucasian.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Latino
As for priests and seminarians, they should learn Ukrainian IF and/or WHEN it is needed, not on principle! We are not in Ukraine, we are in America!


Here in Montreal, all six UGCC parishes (all old calendar, BTW) are served by pastors who, having arrived in Canada in the last twenty years or so, are more proficient in Ukrainian than in French or English. In my opinion, it would be a good thing if we had at least one parish where the priest was born in the West as I suspect that parishioners born here may be somewhat more reluctant to discuss matters with pastors who aren't completely fluent in English. Given that Montreal has produced at least three locally born currently active UGCC priests, I wonder why our Eparchs haven't been appointing any "Western" priests to local parishes in recent years.

In the above paragraph, I have attempted to set out "where I'm coming from". I do not know what the current state of affairs is in the UGCC in terms of calendar and language of services in the various North American eparchies (if anyone has this info or could venture a good guess, please do so). Given my perspective, I would be surprised to hear that the majority of US UGCC parishes hold services in English. And if indeed it is the case that most UGCC services in the US are still in Ukrainian, then I cannot see how a proficiency in Ukrainian should not be a requirement for graduation from a US UGCC seminary.

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At home, I have a copy of "The Webster Home & Office Dictionary". Not sure of the year it was published, but I would guess some time in the 1960s. At about 2 inches of thickness, it's of decent size; I've never seriously considered getting another.

For the word "ethnic" used as a noun, it gives the following definition:
Quote
a heathen; a pagan

Nothing else.

IIRC, I have seen in other dictionaries that the etymology of the word is Greek. I therefore find it quite ironic to see ethnic or liturgical Greeks self-identify as such in a conversation about Christian praxis.

I know that the word has changed meaning (at least to some extent) in recent decades and that today one meaning is something along the lines of "member of a minority ethnic group" and that this is supposedly not meant to be pajoritive, but I'm not quite convinced of that. I know that about a decade ago, The (Toronto) Globe & Mail, perhaps the premier English daily in Canada, was still putting quotes around "ethnic" when using it as a noun (not sure if they still do). The quotes were signifying that the word was not quite being used in the correct sense, but that it was being used as shorthand for something else.

Just some "food for though" for the time being; I'd like to expand upon this (in another thread in another forum, of course) when I have a little more time.

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Originally Posted by Roman

Given my perspective, I would be surprised to hear that the majority of US UGCC parishes hold services in English. And if indeed it is the case that most UGCC services in the US are still in Ukrainian, then I cannot see how a proficiency in Ukrainian should not be a requirement for graduation from a US UGCC seminary.


That would be, following my own thought, one case of when Ukrainian might be useful/necessary. I would say that all the non-Ukrainian seminarians can at least serve the Liturgy in Ukrainian, and that all the Ukrainian seminarians can do so in English. However, they might not be able to preach, hear confessions, etc. Such stuff is more useful in certain centers of immigration (e.g. Chicago, New York, Cleveland, etc.)

It would be difficult, for example, if there were a young man who entered seminary from an English-speaking parish (perhaps being non-Ukrainian in the slightest, or fourth/fifth generation), but suddenly found himself having to learn a foreign language. What if he were not apt in languages? Could there be a way in which he could learn to function with the minimum (i.e. serve the Divine Liturgy) but not feel coerced to learn another language fluently? I know a couple of seminarians, and aspirants to the seminary, in that position. My worry was that they would feel put off when such is not necessary. I pray they become good and holy priests, who love our Church, regardless of their linguistic and cultural abilities.

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C/IABA ICYCY XPI/ICTY !

Excuse me but I think we need further definition. When we speak of services are we speaking of primarily the Divine Liturgy or of the other multiple diverse possibilities? When attending these services are there multilingual, or at least English translation booklets available?

When we are speaking of visitors feeling unwelcome is it through ungracious hostility or inner-city prudence? You would be surprised of how many purses have disappeared from pews as their owners go up for Communion, or “Babas” (Granny) felt intimidated by a pushy stranger telling here if she was a good Christian she would give them $20 to get a “meal”. Please be more specific and less general.

As far as staffing a metropolitan area with only foreign born priests, is there a significant lack of native born priests available in the eparchy? Have these “missionaries” taken English as a second language” courses? Are the suburbs likewise served, or are they in greater need of English speaking clergy? How many parishes are pre 1950 in origin? Are their parish councils set up, if so who staffs them?

What is true on the south-side may not work on the north-side. Eastern custom comes from the grass roots up not the despot down. If parishioners leave where do they go, or don’t they? Those that do go elsewhere, what are they really looking for? If language was the answer, it is surprising the Episcopal church is not doing better.

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My ruminations on this subject after much thought:

(I've mentioned it before), my perspective is that of a Latin Catholic cleric living in central Pennsylvania, with more than a casual knowledge of the situation of the Eastern Churches of the southern Antracite coal regions. I could never pretend to speak of the Eastern Catholic parishes which have experienced the 3rd and 4th wave immigrants.

I also work in a parish which is bi-lingual/bi-cultural. This presents pastoral problems which I only read about before. I believe that the corrolary between East and West is undoubted. Case in point: I met a kid, 8th grade, in our Youth Ministry program. He is of half Puerto Rican/half Mexican parentage. He was born in the US, and is able to speak Spanish at home. He is not in the Hispanic youth ministry, but the Anglo-youth program. I asked him which Mass he attended and he said that he goes to the 12:30 (Spanish) Mass which his parents, but likes to go earlier (7,9, or 11a.m.) so that he can understand what is being said. Is he being Americanized? Surely.

Can the Church stop that process? Perhaps she can try, but the Church's role is to sanctify and evangelize, not to serve as a cultural hallmark. If she starts doing the latter, those who become "Americanized" will start to see the Church as a cultural club and thus look forward to places which preach the gospel and not what could be perceived as an apparent nationalism.

I think this is Byzantine Latino's concern: that some of the church leadership (both lay and clerical) may see that there is a necessary link between a national identity and religion, and that due to the present vibrancy of 1st Generation immigrant communities these parishes may be rather healthy and thus there is little concern. But this is the clincher: What happens when the children and grandchildren forget the Blue, Yellow, and Green and focus on the Red, White, and Blue?

I share his concern that present policies may not be primed to address the results of this Americanization (language, culture, etc.). I know of a specific advertisement last fall offering a diaconal formation program: one of the qualifications was that the candidate must speak Ukrainian. I mentioned this to a Ukrainian-Greek Catholic deacon friend of mine (ordained less than 10 years ago) and he said something like "I'd be out of luck, I can't speak Ukrainian!" Extremely few parishioners, if any at all, in the area (Anthracite Coal Regions) speak Ukrainian. They would be out of a prospective deacon-candidate because of a rule which is almost absolutely useless to them or their pastoral concerns!

We must always remember that culture serves religion, not religion the culture. When the culture starts serving itself and religion the culture, then it becomes a self-feeding beast which will eventually devour itself leaving nothing but a mess to be eaten by a larger animal. This may be harsh, but the command of Christ is "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" not "Go out to all nations and make them patriotic and loyal Jews!"

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Shlomo Mykhayl,

Quote
Excuse me but I think we need further definition. When we speak of services are we speaking of primarily the Divine Liturgy or of the other multiple diverse possibilities? When attending these services are there multilingual, or at least English translation booklets available?


We are speaking of Divine Liturgy, where even if there are English Translation booklets the new people do not know where in the booklet to begin.

Quote
When we are speaking of visitors feeling unwelcome is it through ungracious hostility or inner-city prudence? You would be surprised of how many purses have disappeared from pews as their owners go up for Communion, or “Babas” (Granny) felt intimidated by a pushy stranger telling here if she was a good Christian she would give them $20 to get a “meal”. Please be more specific and less general.


No we are speaking of visitors being received ungraciously. Being asked, <B>what are you doing here; do you know this is a (Ukrainian, Lebanese, Greek, etc.)Church?</B>

Quote
As far as staffing a metropolitan area with only foreign born priests, is there a significant lack of native born priests available in the eparchy? Have these “missionaries” taken English as a second language” courses? Are the suburbs likewise served, or are they in greater need of English speaking clergy? How many parishes are pre 1950 in origin? Are their parish councils set up, if so who staffs them?


There are many times that we have priests that are native born, but the parishoners drive them away since they are not of the proper ethnic background. Or the priest wants to de-Latinize the parish and the older folks do not want to loose their traditions.

Or how many of these Christian parishoners will stay away from the Church if the had a Chinese, African-American, Native American priest?

Quote
What is true on the south-side may not work on the north-side. Eastern custom comes from the grass roots up not the despot down. If parishioners leave where do they go, or don’t they? Those that do go elsewhere, what are they really looking for? If language was the answer, it is surprising the Episcopal church is not doing better.


The true question is "is this congration a Church or a Social Club." No one is saying that customs need to be wiped out, but we need to look at the customs that are legitimate parts of Church Tradition, which should remain part of the Liturgy, and those that need to be placed in social situations. My parish back in Minnesota, we still had a Lebanese Festival, since that is the roots of the parish, but many non-Lebanese parishoners participated since it was part of the social aspect of our congration. They were never made to feel that they are not a 100% Maronite, no matter how they came to our Church.

Poosh BaShlomo,
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C/IABA ICYCY XPI/ICTY !

Reverend Father,

Clarification, was the qualification for the deacon program you were referring to requiring a student to “speak” or “read” Ukrainian? There is a difference, as I know many who can publicly read Shevchenko’s poetry, yet only know their meanings through translation.


Sometime we can get more out of the Divine Liturgy from experiencing it than understanding the words. English services are often attended by immigrants probably for the same reason American born often attend Ukrainian or Slavonic services. It give them a feeling of belonging. For guests instead of announcing the number of the Tone maybe we should announce the page number.

Some clerics are slaves of the canons rather than servants of the people. I am incensed when large parishes uniform their local customs by streamlining their service schedules, which in actuality only streamlines their parish population. Do those who vote with their feet go somewhere else or are they lost to wander while the despot finds himself? As they say if you don’t use it you will loose it, so why are multiple services and “half na pvel” (50/50 language) services unpopular? Saint Methodius and Pope John VIII agreed scripture would be don in tandem languages. Our way is to be inclusive not exclusive, and that goes both ways. Yuhannon I can trump everyone of your complaints with an opposite war story. So what is the real problem? That we are working with sinners not saints? Reread your copy of the lives of the saints.

If “experimental” approaches wasn’t so rampant during English services while traditional approaches safeguarded during Slavonic / Ukrainian usage there may not be such a stigma today. We’ll soon see if this is specifically a Ukrainian curiosity when the Roman’s actually start reusing Latin. As a majority they feed our inferiority complexes, now they expect us to stimulate their orthodoxy?

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Very well stated on all points Mykhayl ! And I'll add that your comment "Sometime we can get more out of the Divine Liturgy from experiencing it than understanding the words" immediately made me think of the times I've attended Saints Volodymyr and Olha, not to mention the fact that I always attend the Ukrainian liturgy at my parish and not the English one.

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Originally Posted by Mykhayl

Excuse me but I think we need further definition. When we speak of services are we speaking of primarily the Divine Liturgy or of the other multiple diverse possibilities? When attending these services are there multilingual, or at least English translation booklets available?


Since the Liturgy is effectively the 'work of the people', and since they should be second nature to everyone of the parish community, such books should not be necessary.

Originally Posted by Mykhayl

When we are speaking of visitors feeling unwelcome is it through ungracious hostility or inner-city prudence? You would be surprised of how many purses have disappeared from pews as their owners go up for Communion, or &#147;Babas&#148; (Granny) felt intimidated by a pushy stranger telling here if she was a good Christian she would give them $20 to get a &#147;meal&#148;. Please be more specific and less general.


So let the 'babas' take their purses with them up to Holy Communion, as my mother always did. And, as I am doing, let us all learn how to address those who ask us for money on the spot if and when the situation arises. These things only take practise.

Originally Posted by Mykhayl

As far as staffing a metropolitan area with only foreign born priests, is there a significant lack of native born priests available in the eparchy?


Yes

Originally Posted by Mykhayl

Have these &#147;missionaries&#148; taken English as a second language&#148; courses?


Some refuse to do so.

Originally Posted by Mykhayl

Are the suburbs likewise served, or are they in greater need of English speaking clergy? How many parishes are pre 1950 in origin? Are their parish councils set up, if so who staffs them?
What is true on the south-side may not work on the north-side. Eastern custom comes from the grass roots up not the despot down. If parishioners leave where do they go, or don&#146;t they? Those that do go elsewhere, what are they really looking for? If language was the answer, it is surprising the Episcopal church is not doing better.


Correct, language is not everything, as the pre-Vatican II Latin Church has shown. Rather, it is the whole culture that must be conformed to Christ. In all things, charity.

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Originally Posted by Jon

Can the Church stop that process? Perhaps she can try, but the Church's role is to sanctify and evangelize, not to serve as a cultural hallmark. If she starts doing the latter, those who become "Americanized" will start to see the Church as a cultural club and thus look forward to places which preach the gospel and not what could be perceived as an apparent nationalism.
...
We must always remember that culture serves religion, not religion the culture. When the culture starts serving itself and religion the culture, then it becomes a self-feeding beast which will eventually devour itself leaving nothing but a mess to be eaten by a larger animal. This may be harsh, but the command of Christ is "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" not "Go out to all nations and make them patriotic and loyal Jews!"


Amen!

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Originally Posted by Mykhayl

Some clerics are slaves of the canons rather than servants of the people. I am incensed when large parishes uniform their local customs by streamlining their service schedules, which in actuality only streamlines their parish population. Do those who vote with their feet go somewhere else or are they lost to wander while the despot finds himself? As they say if you don&#146;t use it you will loose it, so why are multiple services and &#147;half na pvel&#148; (50/50 language) services unpopular? Saint Methodius and Pope John VIII agreed scripture would be don in tandem languages. Our way is to be inclusive not exclusive, and that goes both ways. Yuhannon I can trump everyone of your complaints with an opposite war story. So what is the real problem? That we are working with sinners not saints? Reread your copy of the lives of the saints.


Many times (not every time!) those who end up leaving the parishes are the weaker links. They do not have the right intentions in the first place. As Pope Benedict XVI has adequately stated in an interview (as Cardinal Ratzinger) I vaguely remember reading, we must focus on purifying that which we have (so that we might become more holy, and so that the holy saints of God might bring more people into their communities, that God will sanctify them also!)

Originally Posted by Mykhayl

If &#147;experimental&#148; approaches wasn&#146;t so rampant during English services while traditional approaches safeguarded during Slavonic / Ukrainian usage there may not be such a stigma today. We&#146;ll soon see if this is specifically a Ukrainian curiosity when the Roman&#146;s actually start reusing Latin. As a majority they feed our inferiority complexes, now they expect us to stimulate their orthodoxy?


Very interesting words indeed. Here is much food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Lawrence

Very well stated on all points Mykhayl ! And I'll add that your comment "Sometime we can get more out of the Divine Liturgy from experiencing it than understanding the words" immediately made me think of the times I've attended Saints Volodymyr and Olha, not to mention the fact that I always attend the Ukrainian liturgy at my parish and not the English one.


I've had similar experiences, but they have also taught me that the majority of people don't feel this way and are not the same. If they did, more of our churches would be full, but they're not...they're emptying out (if not empty already). So, what are we going to do about it?

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