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#293140 - 06/25/08 05:36 PM Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
Fr. Deacon Lance Online   content
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3117
Loc: Washington, PA
The Vatican Information Service lists Metropolitan Archbishop Jan Babjak, S.J. of Presov as one of the new metropolitans to receive the pallium on the Solemnity of SS Peter and Paul at the Vatican.

Many will remember the last time a Byzantine Metropolitan was to receive the pallium (Metropolitan Judson of blessed memory) the Ecumenical Patriarch threw a hissy fit and refused to attend the Mass if a Byzantine Metropolitan received the pallium at the Mass. Metropolitan Judson graciously agreed to be presented the pallium in a private ceremony. I could be wrong but, I don't believe Metropolitan Basil received one at all.

I wonder what will happen this year when the EP finds out.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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#293155 - 06/25/08 06:58 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3702
Loc: Dublin
The presentation of the Pallium to Metropolitan Judson was hardly private - the Pope did it in the Sistine Chapel and all the pilgrims from the Pittsburgh Metropolia were there. Quite an honor, I'd say.

Fr. Serge

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#293158 - 06/25/08 07:02 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Serge Keleher]
Etnick Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 947
Loc: Where we say men and mankind
This sounds similar to when Cardinal Husar was created a Cardinal. I remember reading somewhere that he just slipped the ring in his pocket when it was presented to him.

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#293221 - 06/26/08 10:10 AM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Etnick]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Online   content
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2051
Loc: Georgia U.S.
Isn't the reception of the pallium a sign that one receives his authority for the pope? If this is the case, then I could see why the ecumenical patriarch would be upset.

Joe

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#293352 - 06/27/08 08:44 AM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Isn't the reception of the pallium a sign that one receives his authority for the pope? If this is the case, then I could see why the ecumenical patriarch would be upset.

Joe


Benedicite!

Normally, Eastern Catholic Churches are governed by a Patriarch. A newly elected Eastern Catholic Patriarch requests and receives "ecclesiastical communion" from the Pope, something which is marked by the concelebration of the Eucharist. However, those Eastern Catholic Metropolitans who for historical and other reasons do not currently belong to an Eastern Catholic Patriarchate (currently the Metropolitans of Addis Ababa, Pittsburgh, and Preov), receive the pallium as a sign of communion with the Holy See and of metropolitan authority within their Churches sui iuris. I don't see why this should be a problem per se, but of course the Ecumenical Patriarch is entitled to his opinion.

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#293356 - 06/27/08 09:01 AM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Serge Keleher]
Latin Catholic Offline
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Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Serge Keleher
The presentation of the Pallium to Metropolitan Judson was hardly private - the Pope did it in the Sistine Chapel and all the pilgrims from the Pittsburgh Metropolia were there. Quite an honor, I'd say.

Fr. Serge


Benedicite!

Fr. Serge, if you were there in 1995, perhaps you can tell us what kind of pallium Metropolitan Judson received? Was it a Roman pallium or an Eastern omophorion? If the former, how and when would the Metropolitan use it?

Receiving the pallium in the Sistine Chapel is indeed a great honour! By the way, I believe that historically the pallium was often conferred on a new metropolitan in his own see by a papal legate, but I think receiving the pallium in Rome on June 29 is a wonderful symbol of the communion of the Catholic Churches!

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#293628 - 06/29/08 10:11 AM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Latin Catholic]
antv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 59
Loc: Italy
This morning the Pope gave the pallium, during the Holy Mass present the Ecumenical Patriarch, also to a bishop in Eastern vestments, likely Metropolitan Archbishop Jan Babjak

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#293640 - 06/29/08 02:18 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Latin Catholic]
Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3702
Loc: Dublin
Dominus

It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.

Fr. Serge

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#293662 - 06/29/08 04:50 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Serge Keleher]
Elizabeth Maria Offline
Orthodox Christian
Member

Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Narnia
Originally Posted By: Serge Keleher
Dominus

It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.

Fr. Serge


You are right, Father Serge.










Dare I admit, "How silly." And why is the awarding of the Pallium done when the EP is present? To me, it just sounds so political and done in poor taste.


Edited by Elizabeth Maria (06/29/08 04:53 PM)

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#293676 - 06/29/08 06:36 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Serge Keleher]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Serge Keleher
Dominus

It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.

Fr. Serge


Benedicite!

This answers my earlier question about the type of pallium used. I agree it sounds rather pointless to bestow a Roman pallium on a Greek Catholic metropolitan if he isn't going to use it. On the other hand the metropolitan presumably already has an omophorion, so it wouldn't make much sense to give him one of those either... It seems like a reform is needed here! Any suggestions?


Edited by Latin Catholic (06/29/08 06:43 PM)

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#293678 - 06/29/08 06:42 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Elizabeth Maria]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Elizabeth Maria
And why is the awarding of the Pallium done when the EP is present? To me, it just sounds so political and done in poor taste.


Benedicite!

Why not, may I ask? As far as possible every metropolitan appointed during the last twelve months receives his pallium on June 29. Not giving the pallium to the new Greek Catholic metropolitan would thus be "political", since it would only be because of the presence of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Regardless of the issue of what type of pallium to present (see Fr. Serge's comments above) I am glad the Holy Father did not try to hide away the Greek Catholic metropolitan in what would have been a misguided attempt to please the Ecumenical Patriarch. Indeed, I am glad too that the Patriarch apparently didn't object. Hopefully this means that he doesn't share Moscow's evident distaste for Greek Catholics.

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#293682 - 06/29/08 07:14 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Latin Catholic]
Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3702
Loc: Dublin
Having been asked for suggestions I shall give one, which is simplicity itself:

Giving the "pallium" to a Greek-Catholic Metropolitan (or, God forbid, a Greek-Catholic Patriarch) symbolizes precisely that reductio in obedientiam which is the objectionable feature of the Unia (cf. Ernst Suttner). This practice in origin is simply a custom of the Roman tradition which has nothing to do with Churches of the Constantinopolitan tradition and should therefore not be applied to those Churches.

Fr. Serge

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#293686 - 06/29/08 07:25 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Serge Keleher]
Pustinik Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Mid-Atlantic USA
Fr. Serge,
Thank you for the observation. The place of uniates within the Latin Church often seems like a second-class or "adopted" child in a family of natural born children. The "adopted" child so wants to be accepted. And this child has been separated from his/her natural parent, thus being deprived of proper advice. The analogy is maybe lacking but our eastern-rite bishops, eparchs, and patriarchs, one would think, should respectfully decline accepting inauthentic items even if offered in genuine charity. This may be done with good intentions by Rome. Scholarship can offer the insight to the "adoptee" that this gift is inappropriate to accept.

When being trained as a counselor in a rehab center, my mentor instructed me to learn how to "accept the gift without taking the gift." Some clients wanted to give counselors gifts - which was prohibited. Trainee counselors had to convey genuine thanks to the offeror but decline accepting the gift.

A Byzantine Catholic friend, an active cantor, told me that Latin rite bishops had asked our bishops to wear mitres at liturgies being jointly celebrated. This was declined. The "crown" is the authentic element for our bishops. Should the pallium also be declined when offered, just as the mitre has been declined?

-Pustinik
--------------------
"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved." St. Serafim of Sarov

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#293693 - 06/29/08 08:32 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Pustinik]
Fr. Deacon Lance Online   content
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3117
Loc: Washington, PA
Except for the Melkite Patriarchs the other Eastern Catholic Patriarchs seem to still receive palliums and wear them proudly. I have seen iamges of the Maronite, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, and Chaldean patriarchs wearing them.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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#293695 - 06/29/08 08:37 PM Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
Except for the Melkite Patriarchs the other Eastern Catholic Patriarchs seem to still receive palliums and wear them proudly. I have seen iamges of the Maronite, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, and Chaldean patriarchs wearing them.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Benedicite!

If there are images on the web, please could you give us some links?

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