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#293155 - 06/25/08 06:58 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: Dublin
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The presentation of the Pallium to Metropolitan Judson was hardly private - the Pope did it in the Sistine Chapel and all the pilgrims from the Pittsburgh Metropolia were there. Quite an honor, I'd say.
Fr. Serge
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#293221 - 06/26/08 10:10 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Etnick]
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Member
Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2021
Loc: Georgia U.S.
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Isn't the reception of the pallium a sign that one receives his authority for the pope? If this is the case, then I could see why the ecumenical patriarch would be upset.
Joe
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#293352 - 06/27/08 08:44 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
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Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
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Isn't the reception of the pallium a sign that one receives his authority for the pope? If this is the case, then I could see why the ecumenical patriarch would be upset.
Joe Benedicite! Normally, Eastern Catholic Churches are governed by a Patriarch. A newly elected Eastern Catholic Patriarch requests and receives "ecclesiastical communion" from the Pope, something which is marked by the concelebration of the Eucharist. However, those Eastern Catholic Metropolitans who for historical and other reasons do not currently belong to an Eastern Catholic Patriarchate (currently the Metropolitans of Addis Ababa, Pittsburgh, and Prešov), receive the pallium as a sign of communion with the Holy See and of metropolitan authority within their Churches sui iuris. I don't see why this should be a problem per se, but of course the Ecumenical Patriarch is entitled to his opinion.
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#293356 - 06/27/08 09:01 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
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The presentation of the Pallium to Metropolitan Judson was hardly private - the Pope did it in the Sistine Chapel and all the pilgrims from the Pittsburgh Metropolia were there. Quite an honor, I'd say.
Fr. Serge Benedicite! Fr. Serge, if you were there in 1995, perhaps you can tell us what kind of pallium Metropolitan Judson received? Was it a Roman pallium or an Eastern omophorion? If the former, how and when would the Metropolitan use it? Receiving the pallium in the Sistine Chapel is indeed a great honour! By the way, I believe that historically the pallium was often conferred on a new metropolitan in his own see by a papal legate, but I think receiving the pallium in Rome on June 29 is a wonderful symbol of the communion of the Catholic Churches!
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#293640 - 06/29/08 02:18 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Latin Catholic]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: Dublin
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Dominus
It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.
Fr. Serge
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#293662 - 06/29/08 04:50 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Serge Keleher]
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Orthodox Christian
Member
Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1176
Loc: Narnia
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Dominus
It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.
Fr. Serge You are right, Father Serge. Dare I admit, "How silly." And why is the awarding of the Pallium done when the EP is present? To me, it just sounds so political and done in poor taste.
Edited by Elizabeth Maria (06/29/08 04:53 PM)
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#293676 - 06/29/08 06:36 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
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Dominus
It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.
Fr. Serge Benedicite! This answers my earlier question about the type of pallium used. I agree it sounds rather pointless to bestow a Roman pallium on a Greek Catholic metropolitan if he isn't going to use it. On the other hand the metropolitan presumably already has an omophorion, so it wouldn't make much sense to give him one of those either... It seems like a reform is needed here! Any suggestions?
Edited by Latin Catholic (06/29/08 06:43 PM)
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#293678 - 06/29/08 06:42 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Elizabeth Maria]
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Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
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And why is the awarding of the Pallium done when the EP is present? To me, it just sounds so political and done in poor taste. Benedicite! Why not, may I ask? As far as possible every metropolitan appointed during the last twelve months receives his pallium on June 29. Not giving the pallium to the new Greek Catholic metropolitan would thus be "political", since it would only be because of the presence of the Ecumenical Patriarch. Regardless of the issue of what type of pallium to present (see Fr. Serge's comments above) I am glad the Holy Father did not try to hide away the Greek Catholic metropolitan in what would have been a misguided attempt to please the Ecumenical Patriarch. Indeed, I am glad too that the Patriarch apparently didn't object. Hopefully this means that he doesn't share Moscow's evident distaste for Greek Catholics.
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#293682 - 06/29/08 07:14 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Latin Catholic]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: Dublin
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Having been asked for suggestions I shall give one, which is simplicity itself:
Giving the "pallium" to a Greek-Catholic Metropolitan (or, God forbid, a Greek-Catholic Patriarch) symbolizes precisely that reductio in obedientiam which is the objectionable feature of the Unia (cf. Ernst Suttner). This practice in origin is simply a custom of the Roman tradition which has nothing to do with Churches of the Constantinopolitan tradition and should therefore not be applied to those Churches.
Fr. Serge
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#293686 - 06/29/08 07:25 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Mid-Atlantic USA
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Fr. Serge, Thank you for the observation. The place of uniates within the Latin Church often seems like a second-class or "adopted" child in a family of natural born children. The "adopted" child so wants to be accepted. And this child has been separated from his/her natural parent, thus being deprived of proper advice. The analogy is maybe lacking but our eastern-rite bishops, eparchs, and patriarchs, one would think, should respectfully decline accepting inauthentic items even if offered in genuine charity. This may be done with good intentions by Rome. Scholarship can offer the insight to the "adoptee" that this gift is inappropriate to accept.
When being trained as a counselor in a rehab center, my mentor instructed me to learn how to "accept the gift without taking the gift." Some clients wanted to give counselors gifts - which was prohibited. Trainee counselors had to convey genuine thanks to the offeror but decline accepting the gift.
A Byzantine Catholic friend, an active cantor, told me that Latin rite bishops had asked our bishops to wear mitres at liturgies being jointly celebrated. This was declined. The "crown" is the authentic element for our bishops. Should the pallium also be declined when offered, just as the mitre has been declined?
-Pustinik -------------------- "Acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved." –St. Serafim of Sarov
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#293695 - 06/29/08 08:37 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
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Except for the Melkite Patriarchs the other Eastern Catholic Patriarchs seem to still receive palliums and wear them proudly. I have seen iamges of the Maronite, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, and Chaldean patriarchs wearing them.
Fr. Deacon Lance Benedicite! If there are images on the web, please could you give us some links?
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