The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums:
The Deacon's Door (for deacons and deacon
candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian
Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs
offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and
the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum
(for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for
access.
|
|
3302 Members
21 Forums
22850 Topics
295931 Posts
Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
|
|
|
#293155 - 06/25/08 06:58 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
|
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3721
Loc: Dublin
|
The presentation of the Pallium to Metropolitan Judson was hardly private - the Pope did it in the Sistine Chapel and all the pilgrims from the Pittsburgh Metropolia were there. Quite an honor, I'd say.
Fr. Serge
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293221 - 06/26/08 10:10 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Etnick]
|
Member
Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Georgia U.S.
|
Isn't the reception of the pallium a sign that one receives his authority for the pope? If this is the case, then I could see why the ecumenical patriarch would be upset.
Joe
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293352 - 06/27/08 08:44 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
Isn't the reception of the pallium a sign that one receives his authority for the pope? If this is the case, then I could see why the ecumenical patriarch would be upset.
Joe Benedicite! Normally, Eastern Catholic Churches are governed by a Patriarch. A newly elected Eastern Catholic Patriarch requests and receives "ecclesiastical communion" from the Pope, something which is marked by the concelebration of the Eucharist. However, those Eastern Catholic Metropolitans who for historical and other reasons do not currently belong to an Eastern Catholic Patriarchate (currently the Metropolitans of Addis Ababa, Pittsburgh, and Prešov), receive the pallium as a sign of communion with the Holy See and of metropolitan authority within their Churches sui iuris. I don't see why this should be a problem per se, but of course the Ecumenical Patriarch is entitled to his opinion.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293356 - 06/27/08 09:01 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Serge Keleher]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
The presentation of the Pallium to Metropolitan Judson was hardly private - the Pope did it in the Sistine Chapel and all the pilgrims from the Pittsburgh Metropolia were there. Quite an honor, I'd say.
Fr. Serge Benedicite! Fr. Serge, if you were there in 1995, perhaps you can tell us what kind of pallium Metropolitan Judson received? Was it a Roman pallium or an Eastern omophorion? If the former, how and when would the Metropolitan use it? Receiving the pallium in the Sistine Chapel is indeed a great honour! By the way, I believe that historically the pallium was often conferred on a new metropolitan in his own see by a papal legate, but I think receiving the pallium in Rome on June 29 is a wonderful symbol of the communion of the Catholic Churches!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293640 - 06/29/08 02:18 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Latin Catholic]
|
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3721
Loc: Dublin
|
Dominus
It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.
Fr. Serge
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293662 - 06/29/08 04:50 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Serge Keleher]
|
Orthodox Christian
Member
Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1196
Loc: Narnia
|
Dominus
It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.
Fr. Serge You are right, Father Serge. Dare I admit, "How silly." And why is the awarding of the Pallium done when the EP is present? To me, it just sounds so political and done in poor taste.
Edited by Elizabeth Maria (06/29/08 04:53 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293676 - 06/29/08 06:36 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Serge Keleher]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
Dominus
It was a run-of-the-mill Latin-style pallium. One must seriously ask what is meant by presenting such a "vestment" to one of our bishops, who is unlikely ever to wear it again, and when our bishops invariably wear the omophorion, which is historically the same thing.
Fr. Serge Benedicite! This answers my earlier question about the type of pallium used. I agree it sounds rather pointless to bestow a Roman pallium on a Greek Catholic metropolitan if he isn't going to use it. On the other hand the metropolitan presumably already has an omophorion, so it wouldn't make much sense to give him one of those either... It seems like a reform is needed here! Any suggestions?
Edited by Latin Catholic (06/29/08 06:43 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293678 - 06/29/08 06:42 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Elizabeth Maria]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
And why is the awarding of the Pallium done when the EP is present? To me, it just sounds so political and done in poor taste. Benedicite! Why not, may I ask? As far as possible every metropolitan appointed during the last twelve months receives his pallium on June 29. Not giving the pallium to the new Greek Catholic metropolitan would thus be "political", since it would only be because of the presence of the Ecumenical Patriarch. Regardless of the issue of what type of pallium to present (see Fr. Serge's comments above) I am glad the Holy Father did not try to hide away the Greek Catholic metropolitan in what would have been a misguided attempt to please the Ecumenical Patriarch. Indeed, I am glad too that the Patriarch apparently didn't object. Hopefully this means that he doesn't share Moscow's evident distaste for Greek Catholics.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293682 - 06/29/08 07:14 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Latin Catholic]
|
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3721
Loc: Dublin
|
Having been asked for suggestions I shall give one, which is simplicity itself:
Giving the "pallium" to a Greek-Catholic Metropolitan (or, God forbid, a Greek-Catholic Patriarch) symbolizes precisely that reductio in obedientiam which is the objectionable feature of the Unia (cf. Ernst Suttner). This practice in origin is simply a custom of the Roman tradition which has nothing to do with Churches of the Constantinopolitan tradition and should therefore not be applied to those Churches.
Fr. Serge
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293686 - 06/29/08 07:25 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Serge Keleher]
|
Member
Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Mid-Atlantic USA
|
Fr. Serge, Thank you for the observation. The place of uniates within the Latin Church often seems like a second-class or "adopted" child in a family of natural born children. The "adopted" child so wants to be accepted. And this child has been separated from his/her natural parent, thus being deprived of proper advice. The analogy is maybe lacking but our eastern-rite bishops, eparchs, and patriarchs, one would think, should respectfully decline accepting inauthentic items even if offered in genuine charity. This may be done with good intentions by Rome. Scholarship can offer the insight to the "adoptee" that this gift is inappropriate to accept.
When being trained as a counselor in a rehab center, my mentor instructed me to learn how to "accept the gift without taking the gift." Some clients wanted to give counselors gifts - which was prohibited. Trainee counselors had to convey genuine thanks to the offeror but decline accepting the gift.
A Byzantine Catholic friend, an active cantor, told me that Latin rite bishops had asked our bishops to wear mitres at liturgies being jointly celebrated. This was declined. The "crown" is the authentic element for our bishops. Should the pallium also be declined when offered, just as the mitre has been declined?
-Pustinik -------------------- "Acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved." –St. Serafim of Sarov
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293695 - 06/29/08 08:37 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
Except for the Melkite Patriarchs the other Eastern Catholic Patriarchs seem to still receive palliums and wear them proudly. I have seen iamges of the Maronite, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, and Chaldean patriarchs wearing them.
Fr. Deacon Lance Benedicite! If there are images on the web, please could you give us some links?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293696 - 06/29/08 08:45 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Latin Catholic]
|
Orthodox Christian
Member
Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1196
Loc: Narnia
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293698 - 06/29/08 08:48 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Pustinik]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
The place of uniates within the Latin Church often seems like a second-class or "adopted" child in a family of natural born children. Benedicite! Your comparison is very interesting and very sad if true. However, I do hope and pray this is not how most Eastern Catholics would see themselves and their relationship with Latin Catholics! Also, I would like to point out that the Eastern Catholic Churches ("uniates") are not part of the Latin Church, but constitute Churches in their own right ( sui iuris) which are in full communion with Rome.
Edited by Latin Catholic (06/29/08 08:51 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293700 - 06/29/08 09:13 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Elizabeth Maria]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
 Even to me as a Latin Catholic this does look rather odd, and I can't begin to imagine what it looks like to someone who is Eastern Orthodox. Frankly I can't see how the use of a Western-style pallium by the Romanian Greek Catholic major archbishop can be defended in light of Orientalium Ecclesiarum: All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement. All these, then, must be observed by the members of the Eastern rites themselves. Besides, they should attain to on ever greater knowledge and a more exact use of them, and, if in their regard they have fallen short owing to contingencies of times and persons, they should take steps to return to their ancestral traditions. (6) (emphasis added) Surely the Western-style pallium is not part of the ancestral traditions of the Greek Catholics? Thus, substituting the pallium for the omophorion seems to be contrary to both the letter and the spirit of Orientalium Ecclesiarum. Thus, I have to agree with Fr. Serge that the pallium should not be given to Eastern Catholic hierarchs, or at least not to those of the Byzantine tradition. For the sake of comparison, here is the Synod of Bishops of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, without a pallium in sight 
Edited by Latin Catholic (06/29/08 09:26 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293702 - 06/29/08 09:31 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Elizabeth Maria]
|
Member
Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 4693
Loc: Knoxville, TN
|
My personal opinion: The Pallium looks like a noose.
Yes, and it does seem rather schizophrenic to want to wear Metropolitan symbols of the East and West.
Thank goodness the Eastern Catholic bishops cannot wear both the Roman mitre and the Eastern crown. Shhhh! Don't give them any ideas. 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293703 - 06/29/08 09:34 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Elizabeth Maria]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
Yes, and it does seem rather schizophrenic to want to wear Metropolitan symbols of the East and West. I've looked more carefully and it seems His Beatitude Lucian is only wearing the pallium and not the omophorion at all... do you agree? Thank goodness the Eastern Catholic bishops cannot wear both the Roman mitre and the Eastern crown. Now that would be quite a sight and a classic sign of advanced schizophrenia! 
Edited by Latin Catholic (06/29/08 09:35 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293704 - 06/29/08 09:50 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Latin Catholic]
|
Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3118
Loc: Washington, PA
|
Edited by Fr. Deacon Lance (06/29/08 09:55 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293706 - 06/29/08 09:54 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Latin Catholic]
|
Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3118
Loc: Washington, PA
|
I've looked more carefully and it seems His Beatitude Lucian is only wearing the pallium and not the omophorion at all... do you agree? No. He is wearing the small omophor.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293716 - 06/29/08 11:16 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Latin Catholic]
|
Member
Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Mid-Atlantic USA
|
Not all eastern rites are sui juris as Neil pointed out re: Ethiopian (Geez) rite in Washington, DC, which is under the Latin Rite diocese, probably for administrative reasons (see below). The history of the Ruthenian-rite (Rusyn-rite) in America as well as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church also shows how this rite was viewed by Roman rite bishops ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Toth). This has been documented sadly - thankfully we are only now starting to come out from under the cloud cast by Roman-rite hierarchs in North America. But this sense of being accepted as we are by our Latin rite brothers and sisters was formed by historical consciousness of actions taken in the past 100 years overturning some of the agreements of the unia. Time can and hopefully will heal this. Progress is being made. -Pustinik -------------------------------------------------------- "Acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved." –St. Serafim of Sarov------------------------------------------------------ Kidane-Mehret Ethiopian (Ge'ez) Catholic Our Lady of the Covenant of Mercy Ethiopian (Ge'ez) Catholic Meeting At: St Gabriel (Latin) Church 26 Grant Cir, NW Washington DC 20011-4604 USA
202-726-9092
E-MailThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it The Official Website
Rite: Alexandrian Church: Ethiopian (Ge'ez) Catholic Eparchy/Diocese: Archdiocese of Washington (Latin)
Special Circumstances: Ritually Ethiopian Ge'ez; Pastorally Ethiopian & Eritrean
Edited by Pustinik (06/29/08 11:20 PM) Edit Reason: typo
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293732 - 06/30/08 05:36 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: byzanTN]
|
Member
Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 688
Loc: Singapore
|
why do i suddenly think of the Pschent , the double crown of Ancient Egypt - a combination of the Red Crown (Deshret) of Lower Egypt, and the White Crown (Hedjet) of Upper Egypt...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293741 - 06/30/08 09:43 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Elizabeth Maria]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
I guess there is one benefit to wearing the pallium.
An Eastern Catholic hierarch who wears a pallium will not be so easily mistaken for an Orthodox hierarch. It is supposed to be a sign of submission to the Roman See, isn't it?
I remember at the funeral of John Paul II, several of my Catholic friends asked me why the Orthodox hierarchs were helping to serve the funeral. They mistakenly thought that the Eastern Catholic Hierarchs were Orthodox.
I remember thinking how wonderful it was to see the venerable octogenarian Patriarch Stephen II of Alexandria and Patriarch Gregory III of Antioch serving at Pope John Paul II's funeral, since both Alexandria and Antioch have close Petrine links. But of course I can imagine many people would think they were Orthodox, not Catholic. However, I don't think the problem is that Eastern Catholic hierarchs look too much like Eastern Orthodox ones, but rather that the Eastern Catholic Churches are practically unknown among most Latin Catholics. (On the contrary, Vatican II wanted Eastern Catholics to return to their roots and get rid of Latinizing innovations which only serve to perpetuate the thoroughly discredited and objectionable notion of prćstantia ritus Latini.) As for Latin Catholics who don't know the Eastern Catholic Churches, they probably wouldn't know a pallium from an omophorion anyway, so it would hardly make any difference to them what the Eastern Catholic hierarchs were wearing!
Edited by Latin Catholic (06/30/08 09:58 AM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293742 - 06/30/08 09:46 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
Very interesting! The pallium doesn't look so bad on the Armenian Catholic patriarch, given the huge Western-style mitre he is wearing. As for the Syro-Malankaras, now that they have a Major Archbishop who is styled "Beatitude" and "Catholicos," I wonder if he still wears a pallium? As for the second Syro-Malankara metropolitan (of Tiruvalla), I don't suppose he gets a pallium anyway, since he is subject to the Major Archbishop.
Edited by Latin Catholic (06/30/08 09:51 AM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293743 - 06/30/08 09:55 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
|
Member
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Norway
|
I've looked more carefully and it seems His Beatitude Lucian is only wearing the pallium and not the omophorion at all... do you agree? No. He is wearing the small omophor. Thanks for the clarification!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293797 - 06/30/08 08:14 PM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: antv]
|
Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3118
Loc: Washington, PA
|
I suppose that the point is a different one - please correct me The EC Patriarchs and Major Archbishop, if they like, can wear the pallium as the pope does: without the need to receive the pallium from anyone while EC Metropolitans can wear the pallium only if it is given to them by the pope. The Pallium is solely the gift of the Pope of Rome. While not mentioned in the CCEO, it seems the Pallium is still sent to those Eastern Patriarchs and Major Archbishops who request it.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#293841 - 07/01/08 04:58 AM
Re: Possible Pallium Problem with Patriarch
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
|
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 3721
Loc: Dublin
|
Which only strengthens the point that the Patriarchs and thoe of quasi-patriarchal rank ought to know better!
Fr. Serge
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|