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#293819 - 06/30/08 11:47 PM Re: Eastern Catholics in Opus dei [Re: asianpilgrim]
Elizabeth Maria Offline
Orthodox Christian
Member

Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1094
Loc: West Coast
Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim


I love St. Josemaria Escriva. It is Opus Dei as it developed after his death, that I can't stand. Opus Dei today is, sadly, a caricature of what St. Josemaria wanted. From my own experience, it seems to me that Opus Dei has developed an extremely narrow sense of what Catholic orthodoxy is.



That is sad. I particularly dislike that expression, "Do not be holier than the Pope." We are to follow the example of Christ, the Theotokos and the saints. I wonder who coined that expression. He should be drawn and quartered. wink

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#293821 - 06/30/08 11:52 PM Re: Eastern Catholics in Opus dei [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
Justin Oelgoetz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 11
Loc: New Mexico, USA
My experiences are quite different - and all positive. While I can not offer explanations for the negative things many have expressed here, I'd point out that some could have explanations.

Quote:
My wife, who is a licensed counselor, was told that her soul was in jeopardy because she studied and practiced Psychology. I was also told by a woman that I could not be considered a Catholic theologian unless I studied Latin and scholasticism.


This just seems to odd to me - it's worth pointing out that random members of Opus Dei are just as capable of having silly ideas as the rest of us. I've heard some other ones that weren't real brilliant, and then heard someone in Opus Dei who was near by enter the conversation on the other side. They aren't monolithic- contrary to the myth. Their intellectual formation and education can be quite random, and is not necessarily the same as other members of Opus Dei - the standard intellectual formation, while deep for the average Catholic, is not a seminary degree.

Quote:
I used to have some Opus Dei friends but they said they could no longer associate with me because I was in the Orthodox Church. They also said that their spiritual advisers were quick to use the phrase, "Don't be holier than the Pope." And yes, their spiritual readings were very controlled and in obedience they could not question the novus ordo or attend the Traditional Latin Mass.


Spiritual reading is one of their norms - hence a director would have a great deal of influence over it - much like penances in a religious order. As for not being able to be friends with Orthodox - that runs contrary to my experience - but if for some reason a spiritual director thought the friendship was detrimental to the person's faith (i.e. If you had lots of discussions about theology and the Opus Dei members were beginning to question Catholicism) then the instruction could, potentially, be reasonable. There is a point at which any decent spiritual director (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, whatever) would suggest this. One would hope that education in their faith would be the first approach (and only approach needed), but . . .

Quote:
They also deprive you of a basic amount of sleep and the food was not enough to be satisfied.


I imagine the food and sleep varies depending on the exact person who is running the retreat, but I've been on ~5 Opus Dei retreats, and got more sleep than I usually do (i.e. I got ~8 hours on the retreat), and there was more than enough food (actually way too much in general - I gained a few pounds on every retreat I went on). Every center is run more or less independently - there is very little central structure or organization. Often people inside the same center don't know what each other are doing, because of the lack of central organization, and they are too busy to keep track of it themselves. Hence, a retreat in LA can be very different from a retreat in PBGH or Chicago when it comes to details such as food and lodging.

Regardless Asianpilgrim's points about uniqueness and Roman-ness are worth noting. In my experience their interpretation and implementation are usually the broader sort that they should be - but I know of exceptions. I can't speak to what is typical - my experience is limited to the Ohio/Western Pennsylvania region.

Justin

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#293869 - 07/01/08 12:49 PM Re: Eastern Catholics in Opus dei [Re: Justin Oelgoetz]
asianpilgrim Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 467
Loc: Philippines
I think Eastern Catholics interested in keeping their heritage can forget about a vocation to Opus Dei, for the simple reason that Opus Dei is not merely an organization, but a "Personal Prelature" belonging to the Roman Rite, with its own bishop and clergy.

Trying to live the Eastern Catholic life in Opus Dei is like asking a Latin-Rite diocese to establish a Byzantine-Rite parish.

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#293879 - 07/01/08 01:48 PM Re: Eastern Catholics in Opus dei [Re: asianpilgrim]
Xristoforos Offline
Member

Registered: 07/21/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Vienna, Virginia
Opus Dei was a reaction to the Spanish revolution, clericalism and other 20th century modern anti-clerical western catholic problems in the Church.

My own perspective is that Opus Dei is an untraditional idea pretending to be tradition.
A monastery without a role. A peculiar reaction and fusion of socialism with catholicism, a variation of the Catholic Worker.

If one goes back to the roots of the Church, the roots which Eastern Catholic Churches have held to strongly. Christianity existed with many ideas better than Opus Dei for 1900 years.

So the best I can say about Opus Dei is it generally helps people attain salvation, publishes excellent Catholic school religious education books and fights radical heresies. However all these things have been done before Opus Dei existed and shall continue to occur once it is gone. Yes, I do not think it will last.

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#293950 - 07/02/08 01:33 AM Re: Eastern Catholics in Opus dei [Re: asianpilgrim]
Justin Oelgoetz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 11
Loc: New Mexico, USA
Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
I think Eastern Catholics interested in keeping their heritage can forget about a vocation to Opus Dei for the simple reason that Opus Dei is not merely an organization, but a "Personal Prelature" belonging to the Roman Rite, with its own bishop and clergy.


I agree that an Eastern Catholic would find keep their heritage significantly more challenging (as compared to other Eastern Catholics) as a member of Opus Dei.

I don't think it would be any harder because it is a personal prelature. The truth is that any Roman Rite organization with strict prayer norms would be just as difficult, if not more. In some ways the personal prelature status makes things easier - because a personal prelature recognizes that the member still has a Bishop (who is almost certainly not in the prelature), and that Bishop will have their proper say in the member's life. So an Eastern Catholic in Opus Dei would still have the same sort of relationship with their Bishop as everyone else in the Eparchy - thus they would keep their Eastern calendar, with it's holy days, fasts, etc. In addition to those things to which they would be obliged as a member of their Eparchy, they would also have to follow the norms of Opus Dei. Things could be much more convoluted for an Eastern Catholic who was, say, a member of a roman organization that keeps it's own calendar (which places obligations on it's members based on that calendar - obligations that could conflict). I'm pretty sure there are not any hard conflicts between being an Eastern Catholic and being in Opus Dei, this the questions I think about are:

1) Would the Eastern Catholic have adequate time for non-obligatory Eastern practices (and the answer is probably: no, they would not have enough time).

2) Would they find the practices of Opus Dei at times pulling them in a direction different from the direction being emphasized by their Eastern heritage. (and here, the answer is probably: yes, they would at times have a sort of schizophrenic spiritual life)

Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
Trying to live the Eastern Catholic life in Opus Dei is like asking a Latin-Rite diocese to establish a Byzantine-Rite parish.


Oddly, I know of at least one example of a Latin-Rite bishop (in conjunction with the appropriate Eastern Bishop) trying to get a Byzantine-Rite parish going. I can't say the initiative has been wildly successful, and I agree it is odd, different, and seemingly paradoxical at a glance, but --- much like my Syro-Malabar acquaintance who is a supernumerary in Opus Dei --- sometimes different, strange, paradoxical things happen, and sometimes the Church as a whole, and the individuals involved are the better for it.

Justin


Edited by Justin Oelgoetz (07/02/08 01:36 AM)
Edit Reason: didn't do the quotes correctly

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