Deacon John,

Thanks for you update on what is occurring out West. Your stat of approximately 3,000 in Van Nuys is verified below from the 2005 data. Wow, the decrease from just over 7,000 to just below 3,000 (-83.37%) isn't a promising trend is it?!

Here are stats from 2005

http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat05.pdf

Overall 268,161(1990) 99,381 (2005) -62.939801%

Pitts 143,784(1990) 60,100 (2005) -58.201190%

Parma 22,202(1990) 12,401 (2005) -44.14467%

Passaic 85,050(1990) 24,031(2005) -71.744856%

Van Nuys 7,125(1990) 2,849(2005) -83.365036%


Monomakh

Monomahk,

As has been gone over several times on this forum, the 1990 stats are unverifiable, unreliable and most likely inflated and had been for some time in order to get us raised to Metropolitan status. The Eparchy of Mukachevo currently has 320,000 faithful out of a population of 1.2 million. Estimates put the Rusyn imigration to the US at about a 250,000. The 2005 numbers put us at about 100,00. The OCA is at about 100,000. ACROD is at about 50,000. You add up the numbers. Can we stop beating the dead horse that the Metropolia has shrunk by 60-80%. It is only true using the false numbers.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Father Deacon Lance,

what evidence or data do you have that the data is false? What data would you like to use instead? Deacon John brought up the approximately 3,000 members today which coincides with the 2005 data. Is it because the decrease exists and is so severe that you don't like the data?

I am providing info from a third party, I didn't make it up. Could you please provide the data that you feel is accurate, document where it is from, and prove that the data I've displayed in incorrect, or retract your assertion that what I've displayed is specious data. I don't see how just because you think that the data is wrong that that makes it wrong?!

Does the CNEWA (Catholic Near East Welfare Association) have some nefarious objective that you are aware of? It is a papal agency founded by Pope Pius XI, do you know something that we all don't on this? They published the numbers, have you contacted them for a retraction?

If the numbers continue to decline in the future, will you then say that the 2005 data is inflated too because you won't like the decrease at that time either?

Monomakh

Monomahk,

I do not disagree with the 2005 numbers. The Rusyn imigration number comes the Carpatho-Rusyn Society. If 250,000 Rusyns imigrated, and we lost at least half to the Orthodox, and had non-existant outreach: how in 1990 were there 268,000 Byzantine Catholics in the US when in the Ukraine there are only 320,000? Use your head man.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Father Deacon Lance,

I'll use my head and ask why do you take the Carpatho-Rusyn society numbers as gospel?



I'll use my head again and ask you, are you accusing the BCA of purposely lying about data in order to manipulate Rome into a decision?

Monomakh

Monomahk,

Father Lance is correct. The numbers were inaccurately reported. CNEWA is not responsible for the numbers as they only report what is given to them.

I believe a realistic accounting would put Ruthenians Catholics at about 20,000; Ukrainian Catholics at about 25,000; the OCA at about 28,000 and Johnstown at about 8,000.

John

The ACROD priest at Camp Nazareth did say that the ACROD diocese has 8,000 people.

Ruthenian Catholics at 20,000? I don't understand that number, what is that from?

Monomakh

Monomakh,

The numbers are all my personal estimates, based upon ongoing conversations with friends of mine who are clergy in each of the jurisdictions and eparchies.

John

John,

I was not clear enough, that's not exactly what I meant.

I should have asked, are you saying the 20,000 number is for the entire BCA in the US or does it represent something else?

Monomakh

Monomakh,

It is my personal estimate of Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics in the entire USA:

Pittsburgh: 5,000
Passaic: 7,000
Parma: 5,500
Van Nuys: 2,500

I offer no supporting evidence, have no special knowledge from anyone that no one else has, and this estimate represents my best and honest judgment. Those who suggest that my judgment is very flawed might be absolutely correct. But I don't think so.

John

John,

thanks for clarifying.

I think that the interesting point is that the 2005 numbers may be really inflated as well then too! They claimed around 100,000.

So in 2020 the same stuff will be occurring, where people asking what the heck is going on with the diminishing numbers and try to point to something tangible will be told "it's not that bad, the numbers were inflated, let's not use the numbers that the BCA published themselves". We can't even rely on the numbers posted by the BCA themselves about themselves.

And I wonder why an effective and meaningful evangelization program can't developed and implemented?! Perhaps there are those in positions that can make a difference who don't see the deterioration of the BCA as that dramatic or even occurring and thus revising occurs rather than evangelizing. It's those darn inflated numbers making people think that the ship is sinking.


Monomakh

Hopefully this is my final reflection on this today.

But if the Carpatho-Rusyn Society is correct that 250,000 Ruthenians came here in the first half of the 1900s, and today we have according to the Admin's numbers 20,000 members in the church, all I can say is holy cow, what a debacle. I mean, wow, what a complete and total collapse. I mean that's a 92% percent decrease. We should have 1-2 million plus today.

Where did it all go wrong!

Monomakh

i am going to suggest that what you are seeing here is little different than what you can see in any historically ethnic latin rite parish in the northeast. italian parishes are no longer italian, irish parishes are no longer distinctively irish, polish parishes [this seems to me to be the best comparison group] are disappearing and those parishes that are designated as linguistically polish and have a polish language liturgy are catering to a very aged community that is NOT being sustained by immigration. they will disappear in the not too distant future.

now, of course all latin rite parishes are also seeing overall declines in attendance, but these parishes that were once historically associated with various immigrant populations are still supported by local roman catholics who are moving into the area and attending them without any interest or concern over their history. byzantine rite parishes do not benefit from that in the same way (at least in the north east).

the ruthenian and ukrainian catholic churches have a tough road ahead of them as they try and figure out how to draw catholics through their doors...catholics that have a real commitment to these apostolic churches. i think it is safe to assume that these churches are ever-DECREASINGLY going to be sustained by the original immigrant communities who were their raison d'etre because these communities are dispersing.

in the peace of christ.

Without beating a dead horse, this area is ripe for scholarly study in the area of sociology of religion or religious anthropology. Many of us have anecdotal information, but with a broad set of interviews, possibly supplemented with a nationwide survey grounded on the initial interviews, some insights might emerge. Maybe studies have already been done, and if someone has those references it would be a welcome addition to this forum.

A few brief personal examples:

(1) One of my cousins was raised in a zealous UGC family where the father was Ukrainian and mother Rusyn attends Roman rite. His wife seems to be not interested in UGK liturgy. He goes a couple times per year to Ukrainian liturgies. The rest of his siblings, dispersed throughout the world really seem to have dropped out of the church. They are all in age range from 40-60. I think their father overdosed them on church.

Another first cousin of my father, aged 85+, was raised in GC parish. He tells of being forced to attend Rusyn ("Russian") language schools and rather severe punishment. His wife is Polish. They have run a food bank for 40-some years in their Latin rite church. They seem not interested in Eastern rite though their town has a GC parish nearby.

A third cousin with Hungarian and Rusyn parents is active in the Byzantine Rite. One of this cousins siblings became a Presbyterian deacon, not sure what faith, if any, the other sibling is involved in - I think Latin rite but doesn't convey any interest in things Byzantine.

Another relative, born in the early 1900s, was raised in area where Latin rite predominated. After attending GC liturgy once or twice as a youth, this relative thought, and continues to think the liturgy is too long; that being said this person never misses liturgy at the Latin rite church and is devoted to the faith.

A scholarly study of anthropological or sociological nature might be able to capture much of this living history before the seniors move onto eternity. We still see the drift in the parish I attend -- two years ago it was thriving -- now the numbers at liturgy seem quite diminished. Personally, I do not see much change from the trend. With respect, I think the BC hierarchy, in my experience, does not seem too responsive or tuned into the faithful who are drifting out when compared to other jurisdictions. (Latin rite orders and theological centers/universities seem to foster scholarly studies to determine what is happening - the Holy Spirit might be speaking in the insights from these laity). In many regards, though a vital youth ministry (Byz Catholic Youth) is emerging which is gratifying. Also, reading Horizons newspaper from Parma also gives hope of new life and vitality in the midwest. We'll see what God has in store for us....

With respect,

-Pustinik

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"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved." –St. Serafim of Sarov