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Popovtsy Churches (#1 of 5) #293964
07/02/08 04:57 AM
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Irish Melkite Offline OP
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These are the Popovtsy Churches. (There are significantly more distinct bodies within the Bespopovtsy.)

  • Beilokrinitskaya Ierarkhiya (Beilokrinitskaya Hierarchy) - Also Rogozhskoe Soglasie (Rogozhskoe Accord), more commonly the Lipovan Orthodox Old Rite Church, Orthodox Old Ritualist Church, or Orthodox Old Rite Church, is the present-day Mother Church in Russia of those Old Believer jurisdictions which are subject to or have their origins in the Beilokrinitskaya Ierarkhiya. (Rogozhskoe derives from the name of a Moscow cemetery where the Church's spiritual and administrative center is situated; Lipovan has reference to an early leader of the Popovtsy.)
    • Ruska Pravoslavna Starobriodts Crkva (Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church), also Russian Orthodox Old Ritualist Church, and formerly Old Orthodox Church of Christ, also has its origins in the Beilokrinitskaya Ierarkhiya and, until a very recent break (regarding which Father Serge posted), was in communion with the Lipovan Church. As details surrounding the reason for the split aren't yet public, that I am aware, it's difficult to know what the future holds.
  • Novozybkovskaya Ierarkhiya (Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy) began as Beglopopovtsi but, having acquired a hierarchy, moved into the ranks of Popovtsy, in which they are the smaller body (between themselves and the Beilokrinitskaya). The name derives from Novozybkov, where the primatial hierarch is resident. They rejected the validity of hierarchal orders within the Popovtsy headquartered at Bielokrinitsa. Drevlepravoslavnaya Soglasie (Russian Old Orthodox Church) is the Church with origins in the Novozybkovskaya Ierarkhiya.
    • Slavo-Georgian Old-Orthodox Church resulted from a schism in the Novozybkovskaya ranks. It's small, existing principally in Georgia and adjacent Russian regions. The most distinctive feature of its praxis is that liturgies are served in Old Slavonic and an old, liturgical form of Georgian. This body was formed in the early 1990s, I believe.
    • Old Orthodox Church of Russia is, likewise, the result of a schism from the Novozybkovskaya. It is present in Russia and Romania, probably a bit larger than the Georgian body. Their separation came about as a reaction to what they considered to be renovations on the part of the Novozybkovskaya. This body dates back to, roughly, the turn of this century.
  • Belovodskaya Ierarkhiya (Belovodskaya Hierarchy) was a Popovtsy jurisdiction that took issue with the Belokrinitskaya Ierarkhiya over some hierarchs. The name derives from Belovodskaya in the Archangel region, an area east of Siberia associated in legend with a rich, fertile, and benevolently governed land. As a consequence of the myths surrounding the place, Belovodskaya was a not uncommon destination for Beguni-Stranniki (itinerant sects within the Bespopovtsy) and the settlement is documented as having been founded by them. Consequently, there is speculation that this body was formed from some among those itinerant Bespopovtsy who reconciled with the concept of a settled existence and a priested religious life. If the Belovodskaya Ierarkhiya is presently extant as a separate body - and I doubt it, as I've seen no references to it in any reasonably current literarure, its numbers are very small.
  • Edinovertsi (United Believers), also Co-Religionists or Church Old Believers, were Old Believers, principally drawn from Popovtsy, who accepted a usage established by the Orthodox Church to allow Old Believer praxis within the structure of the Orthodox Church. It's not a Church per se, but would probably best be considered as comparable to a usage. The plan was predicated on a perception that differences in praxis were the sole, or at least major, factor motivating Old Believers. It was successful insofar as the usage exists to this day, but failed to achieve such numbers in its early decades to make a convincing argument that praxis was the overriding consideration. In its inception, it was compared to the Uniate movement of the Catholic Church and the term Uniate has been applied to both it and its faithful.
Many years,

Neil

Last edited by Irish Melkite; 03/16/12 06:44 AM.

"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Irish Melkite] #293969
07/02/08 05:41 AM
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I probably should add reference to the following:

  • Luzhkovskoe Soglasie (Luzhkov's Compact), also Luzhkovtsy, Luzhkane, and Louzhkane
and,
  • Makeevtsy (Makeev's Confession)
As I explained in the thread on Old Ritualist groups, these were Beglopopovtsi bodies which have lost their priesthood, but reject the notion of being considered Bespopovtsy. Both survive only in scattered remnant pockets.

I also didn't reference
  • Andreevtsy (Andrew's Hierarchy)
or,
  • Klimentovtsy (Kliment's Hierarchy)
because, as I explained in the other thread, it's unlikely that the latter is still extant and the former is certainly not any longer considered to be Old Ritualist by anyone (I doubt even its own adherents)

I also didn't list the
  • Katolicheskaja Stariobriodtsi (Catholic Old Ritualists)
because they don't constitute a Church, being more rather a usage within the Russian Greek-Catholic Church

Likewise, I did not include those few other bodies which either began as Popovtsy (or apparently hoped to be such), but ended up in the Bespopovtsy ranks because they could not attract or maintain clergy or were cut off from the possibility of doing so. These would include such as the Semeyskie (Churched) who were Popovotsy exiled to the Lake Baikul region in Siberia. Lacking access to clergy, they ultimately transitioned into the priestless genre.

Many years,

Neil

Last edited by Irish Melkite; 03/16/12 06:45 AM.

"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Irish Melkite] #294094
07/03/08 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite

I also didn't list the
  • Katolicheskaja Stariobriodtsi (Catholic Old Ritualists)
because they don't constitute a Church, being more rather a usage within the Russian Greek-Catholic Church

Neil


How many Old Ritualist Catholic priests and parishes are there, or who at least celebrate the Old Rite (Kyivan or Russian) regularly?

Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: asianpilgrim] #294096
07/03/08 07:23 AM
07/03/08 07:23 AM
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Pilgrim,

Based on the reports of Father Sergii Golovanov, there is a single community of Old Ritualist Catholics in Russia whose priest serves according to the pre-Nikonian Usage. Either Father Serge or Deacon Randy may remember the particulars as to where his parish is located - I think St Petersburg, but wouldn't swear to it and can't find my notes on it at the moment.

To the best of my knowledge there are no other places in which it is regularly served. I don't know whether there are other presbyters able (from a standpoint of knowledge and training) to serve it.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Irish Melkite] #294129
07/03/08 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Pilgrim,

Based on the reports of Father Sergii Golovanov, there is a single community of Old Ritualist Catholics in Russia whose priest serves according to the pre-Nikonian Usage. Either Father Serge or Deacon Randy may remember the particulars as to where his parish is located - I think St Petersburg, but wouldn't swear to it and can't find my notes on it at the moment.

To the best of my knowledge there are no other places in which it is regularly served. I don't know whether there are other presbyters able (from a standpoint of knowledge and training) to serve it.

Many years,

Neil


Doesn't Fr. Serge serve according to the Old Kyivan Rite? grin

Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: asianpilgrim] #294206
07/04/08 10:30 AM
07/04/08 10:30 AM
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Thanks for all the info about the Old-Ritualists, Neil! I am very interested in them, but I've had trouble finding a lot of good information about them online.

Would you happen to know how extensive the Old-Ritualist diaspora is? Are there Old-Ritualists in England, Australia, Brazil, etc. places like that?

Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Doubting Thomas] #294263
07/05/08 03:02 AM
07/05/08 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas
I've had trouble finding a lot of good information about them online.


Thomas.

There's actually quite a bit of info on-line, but much of it is not in English. Paul Wigowsky's Collection of Old Believer History and Tradition is incomplete (last two chapters - on migration and clothing - weren't yet written, last I looked) but a decent source of easily read material.

The University of Oregon has done extensive work both with and for the Oregon communities and has a wide variety of both scholarly and popular material available on-line, much of it (as well as English language materials elsewhere) catalogued in Margaret McKibben's Bibliography of Old Believers in North America.

There's a half-hour film, viewable on-line, at FolkStreams.Net that was done back in the 80's and documents a wedding among one of the Oregon communities. A number of other short pieces documenting ceremonies or various aspects of their lifestyle can be found on YouTube.

There is an Old Orthodox Wikipedia but it's relatively new and, last I looked, had very little substantive material as yet and much of that seems a bit strange, enough so to make one wonder why it's there. Examples include: an entry on vestments that illustrates (beautifully, but incongrous when one considers the site) Syriac vestments; an entry on Old Order Amish, which lacks solid connection unless it's to discuss the Anabaptist influence on some of the dissenting religious bodies that were formed contemporaneously with the Old Believers, such as the Spiritual Christians (Doukhobors and Molokans). I did note that one of our forum members, fatman, contributes there.

You'll also find some references and materials about them on Molokan and Doukhobor sites on-line.

Quote
Would you happen to know how extensive the Old-Ritualist diaspora is? Are there Old-Ritualists in England, Australia, Brazil, etc. places like that?


As to England, Father Mark is proof certain that there is at least one community there. I'll leave it to him or Father Serge to elaborate on the numbers there.

There are at least a couple of communities in Australia, descendents of those who fled China through Harbin. Someone who posts here was in contact with one of those.

There are also communities in Brazil and smaller ones in some other parts of South America; some of those in Oregon, Alberta, British Columbia, and Alaska came from there. Of course, there are communities in several European nations - most, but not all, in the East - Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Latvia, Estonia, and Bulgaria, all come immediately to mind. There were - and I believe still are - communities in Finland also.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: asianpilgrim] #294277
07/05/08 04:57 AM
07/05/08 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by asianpilgrim


Doesn't Fr. Serge serve according to the Old Kyivan Rite? grin


Father has indicated that he serves according to the Old Kyivan Use or the Old Rite. I'm unfamiliar with the Old Kyivan Use, so I can't comment on how it differs from the Old Rite. Hopefully, he can delve into this in more detail.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Irish Melkite] #294278
07/05/08 06:15 AM
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Sadly there is no organised Old Rite Orthodox life in Britain.

I live as a semi-solitary monastic and I should add that though I am an Old Rite monastic I can't really be referred to as an Old Believer. Together with former members of the now-extinct Belokrinitsy parish in Paris (quite a mouthful) I am under the omophor of a True Orthodox bishop, not an Old Believer bishop.

The Russian Old Rite Orthodox bishop of Augsburg, who ordained me, apostasised and left Western Europe without a bishop, and me without an abbot. My present unhappy position is a sort of edinoverie.

I was told that Metropolitan Alimpii wanted a parish to be set up in London and, at one time, presumed that I would be part of that. However, fate decreed that this should not be.

There are scattered Old Believers throughout Britain, many of them priestless, but the Old Believer hierarchies and councils have made no efort to provide Church life for them.

Spasi Khristos - Mark, unworthy monk.

I should add that the Georgian Old Rite Orthodox Church was established by the Novozybkovtsy, rather than being the result of a scism amongst them. Sadly schisms followed its establishment.

Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Fr Mark] #294283
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Bless, Father,

Thank you for the information, clarification, and correction.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Irish Melkite] #294441
07/07/08 08:45 AM
07/07/08 08:45 AM
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Neil, thanks very much! I appreciate all the information. smile

Father Mark, your situation is indeed sad. You are in my prayers.

Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Doubting Thomas] #294584
07/08/08 09:25 AM
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"The Russian Old Rite Orthodox bishop of Augsburg, who ordained me, apostasised and left Western Europe without a bishop, and me without an abbot. My present unhappy position is a sort of edinoverie."

Is he the one who recently entered the Ecumenical Patriarchate (as a priest, not as a bishop)?

Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Doubting Thomas] #296254
07/29/08 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas
Are there Old-Ritualists in England, Australia, Brazil, etc. places like that?


We have three Old Rite churches here in Australia - two under the Bela Krinitsa (our Archbishop is Sofrony of Australia, Canada and America) and one Church under the Moscow Metropolitan. One of each in Sydney, and the second BK in Melbourne.

There are also scattered Old Believer (Bezpopovtsy) communities throughout the country - the Priests sometimes visit them - though I believe there are even those that shun the priesthood still. I don't know much about them. The community in Sydney is quite large. It is one of the larger Russian Churches in the city (about 10 to 15 Russian Churches under varying eparchies of Orthodoxy throughout Greater Sydney - not to mention Ukrainian and other Slavic parishes). We have a good relationship with the Nikonians. There is no concelebrations - but we're friendly enough (intermarriage is usually the only option).

We are far away and often overseen! wink


Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Fr Mark] #388438
11/24/12 12:57 PM
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fr Mark!

Is there now no old rite communities in west europe ?

Re: Popovtsy Churches [Re: Irish Melkite] #388439
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Too bad it isn't as simple as using Windows to "restore your system" to an older period in time!

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