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Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". #294410 07/07/08 02:29 AM
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Halia12 Offline OP
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As we Orthodox have maintained all along a mistake was made.
Quote
PRESS RELEASE

With respect to the recently published articles reporting that allegedly His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew believes that it is possible for the Greek Catholics (Uniates) to have a “double union”, in other words, full communion with Rome as well as with Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarchate refutes this inaccurate statement and affirms it was never made. The Ecumenical Patriarchate repeats its position that full union in faith is a prerequisite for sacramental communion.

At the Patriarchate, the 5th of July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxNews/message/9549

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Halia12] #294419 07/07/08 05:02 AM
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That's a shame. We must just keep praying.

CDL

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Carson Daniel] #294422 07/07/08 06:02 AM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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This was inevitable - Bartholomew of Constantinople has said the same thing each time the proposal has been advanced.

Fr. Serge

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Carson Daniel] #294423 07/07/08 06:11 AM
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searching east Offline
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At least we had the Vesper's service at Outside the Walls. Keep praying, I agree.
I understand why we can not just call ourselves reunited without actually being of one mind and faith, but I do think we need to keep talking. Although I do not think that the church was not completely in union of faith to every last detail all the years before 1054 either. So I wonder just how united union must be? I think this verse read on the feast day of Sts. Peter and Paul is a good prayer for us to continue with...

Romans 15: 5- 6 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: searching east] #294425 07/07/08 06:32 AM
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Mykhayl Offline
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C. I. X.

In John 17:11 Christ too prayed.

Last edited by Mykhayl; 07/07/08 06:35 AM.
Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Halia12] #294437 07/07/08 10:54 AM
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Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
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Quote
full union in faith is a prerequisite for sacramental communion.


This is only logical. It is this "full union in Faith" which must be strived for.

Dn. Robert

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #294438 07/07/08 11:20 AM
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francis Offline
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Quote

It is this "full union in Faith" which must be strived for.


My question is: what exactly is "full union in Faith"? How is it defined? Clearly, as mentioned above, East and West were not in complete agreement on all points of doctrine in the 1st millennium, especially the 2nd half. Yet they were (mostly) in communion with each other. Today, there are those on the extremes of each Church who would require complete and absolute submission to every detail of their respective Church's doctrines before they would accept union (Thank God Benedict and Bartholomew do not subscribe to his viewpoint!), but what should "full union in faith" look like?


Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: francis] #294446 07/07/08 02:16 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Not the easiest question - but it involves the distinction between dogma and theologoumena.

Fr. Serge

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #294450 07/07/08 02:36 PM
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Mykhayl Offline
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Are we looking at this as Westerners, awaiting for directive from the top? As Easterners we already have a directive from the top in John 17:11. There was no prohibition of the idea. There seams to be a ground swell in Rus’ (Ukraine and Slovakia). The diaspora here needs to develop itself and support this at the grass root level.

There is more than the Eucharist we can commune together with. Neighboring parishes both Orthodox and Catholic whether Rusyn, Russian and Ukrainian can host, visit and support each other with communal dinners, Moleban prayer services and joint charitable and educational projects. Have a neighboring OCA parish host nursery school to 1st grade, the Byzantine Catholics 2 to 4, the Ukrainian Orthodox 5 to 8 and Ukrainian Catholics high school with an adult gathering at the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox in the same town sharing Sunday School efforts. Or the neighboring OCA parish can sale pyrohy, the Byzantine Catholics haluschky, the Ukrainian Orthodox borsch and Ukrainian Catholics kovbasa and kraut with the Carpatho Russian Orthodox doing home made bread in the same town sold from one location, the most accessible of their halls with a parking lot so each can profit from their efforts. Then a joint choir can get together only to sing parastas at the funeral homes. Eventually communal commemorations of Akcija Wisla, the Famine Genocide, 1,025 anniversary of Slavic Christendom or any other reason we can get together to jointly host and received. Maybe a weekend “Byzantine Orbit Festival” at the local convention exhibit hall will develop. If we act as Christians by our love locally maybe upper management will get the idea.

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #294455 07/07/08 03:03 PM
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Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Not the easiest question - but it involves the distinction between dogma and theologoumena.

Fr. Serge


That's it in a "nutshell".

Dn. Robert

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #294470 07/07/08 05:31 PM
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Epiphanius Offline
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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Not the easiest question - but it involves the distinction between dogma and theologoumena.
Fr. Serge,

Exactly!

Part of the problem is that Photius' condemnation of the Filioque as heretical presupposes the dogmaticity of the Monarchy of the Father.

Another part is that the Council of Florence, which declared the Filioque to be dogmatic, is regarded as an infallible ecumenical council in the West.

The challenge will be to get beyond both barriers ...


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Epiphanius] #294483 07/07/08 07:37 PM
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Halia12 Offline OP
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Quote
Neighboring parishes both Orthodox and Catholic whether Rusyn, Russian and Ukrainian can host, visit and support each other with communal dinners, Moleban prayer services and joint charitable and educational projects. Have a neighboring OCA parish host nursery school to 1st grade, the Byzantine Catholics 2 to 4, the Ukrainian Orthodox 5 to 8 and Ukrainian Catholics high school with an adult gathering at the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox in the same town sharing Sunday School efforts.


Sorry after this issue of a Catholic press release spreading misinformation about the EP and "double unity", I doubt any Orthodox churches will want to be involved in any such ideas you suggest. There is just too much room for misrepresentation again and Catholics claiming intercommunion.


Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Halia12] #294507 07/07/08 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Halia12
As we Orthodox have maintained all along a mistake was made.
Quote
PRESS RELEASE

With respect to the recently published articles reporting that allegedly His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew believes that it is possible for the Greek Catholics (Uniates) to have a “double union”, in other words, full communion with Rome as well as with Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarchate refutes this inaccurate statement and affirms it was never made. The Ecumenical Patriarchate repeats its position that full union in faith is a prerequisite for sacramental communion.

At the Patriarchate, the 5th of July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxNews/message/9549


I thought it might be too good to be true.

I am okay that we are not there yet, but I get really mad about false reports! mad

Last edited by lanceg; 07/07/08 10:23 PM.
Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: lanceg] #294538 07/08/08 02:24 AM
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Lance, I'll say up front that I am sorry you feel so hurt by the position the EP took (perhaps I am reading too much into your words). Unlike you however, as a member of the EOC, I would have been scandalized if he had actually said what had been reported. Whether some like it or not, the EOC has always taken a hard line when it comes to reunification. There has to be unity of faith. There really is not any on the real, important issues that divide the two churches (e.g., papal primacy and infallibility, original sin, filioque etc).. We all know why the EOC takes the position it does, although some members of the Church of Rome decry it. Many of the members of the EOC like the status quo and I must include myself in that category.

Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Refutes "Double Unity". [Re: Halia12] #294554 07/08/08 06:03 AM
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Mykhayl Offline
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“Sorry after this issue of a Catholic press release spreading misinformation about the EP and "double unity", I doubt any Orthodox churches will want to be involved in any such ideas you suggest. There is just too much room for misrepresentation again and Catholics claiming intercommunion.” Quote Halia 12

On a student level or in the kitchen (domestic) church fellowship? Neither side is infallible when it comes to press release miscommunication. It is unchristian to assume we cannot overcome problems together, isolation is hardly productive even in a cloister. I assume you are too young to remember the Millennium war of 1988. Soviet disinformation manipulated official Orthodox perspective to secure a Slavophil reality of Kyivan Rus’ Christendom. Ukrainians both Catholic, Orthodox and those only cultural worldwide rebelled together on a grass root level, disregarding clerical haughty isolation. The western media was so impressed with the volume of activity that when the Churches of Ukraine emerged from the catacombs the free press debunked the Soviet misinformation in their reports. Soon after the Godless empire’s facade fell freeing all Churches to carry out their evangelical mission. Some may see today’s reality in the Ukrainian Republic and Slovakia as problematic, others see it as the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in God’s time. What dogma do either not believe? I am not asking about the Mysteries’ working which some are arrogant enough to think their limited understanding can comprehend. Do we really fear a flaw in orthodoxy or a compromise of absolute control? Do we Easterners only wave the vale during the Creed to shoo the flies?

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