If memory serves me correctly, the Ecumenical Patriarch Demetrius visited Kyiv in 1986.

Fr. Serge

Слава Ісусу Христу!

Father bless,

My apologies, I did not come across that fact. Thank you for keeping our history honest.

Mykhayl

I've read that Patriarch Demetrios was supposed to visit Moscow for the 1988 celebrations of the Millennium of the Baptism of Rus, but that a conflict between him and the late Patriarch Pimen resulted in the visit being scuttled.

Слава Ісусу Христу!

“Patriarch Demetrios was supposed to visit Moscow for the 1988 celebrations of the Millennium of the Baptism of Rus,” quote Asianpilgraim

And your point?

Слава Ісусу Христу!

Separation of church and state is not a universal dogma. Church history cannot be ignored even when you have to read between the lines or it appears political.

The Ecumenical Patriarch Demetrius was invited by the Russian Patriarch Pimen to Moscow in 1988 to celebrate the “Baptism of Russia”. Instead in July of that year he met with a large delegation composed of Orthodox and Greco Catholic Ukrainians in Istanbul, Turkey. He prayed with them for the freedom of the Ukrainian nation from Communist imperial tyranny.

Pope John Paul II was likewise invited to visit the Russian Patriarch in Moscow in 1988 to celebrate the “Baptism of Russia”. Also in July of 1988 he opted to meet with an estimated 14,000 Ukrainians in Rome to Celebrate the Christendom of Ukraine Rus’. These Ukrainians came from Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, Great Brittan Holland, Poland, USA, Yugoslavia, and even the Ukrainian SSR.

Twenty years later we are again reliving this drama. Unfortunately the political ramifications of Rusyn Church history has not gotten any easer with test case warnings over the canonical dispute of the autonomy of the Estonian Orthodox Church and the invasion of Georgian territorial sovereignty. Promoting manipulative history to justify what was referred to as an “evil empire” by a US president seems problematic.

I was adding a tidbit of information, based on some old newspaper articles from the 1980's that I read. Why try to look for some suspicious "Russophile" motive or intent behind what I said?

This is getting crazy.

Слава Ісусу Христу!

The segment is called “CHURCH NEWS”, I was merely trying to make your post relevant keeping within the parameters of the original posts “Ecumenical Patriarch to Lead Celebrations in Kyiv...”.

Yes it “is getting crazy” (quote asianpilgrim), but not on the forum but where the rivers organically run south into the Black Sea basin. Ancient empires are fighting old battles with new countries using archaic justifications. World Wars and crusades started on less.

Well, to the very best of my knowledge the
ecumenical Patriarch is not leading any celebrations in Kyiv next week. So if we're going to keep this thread going, we must accept a certain air of unreality.

Fr. Serge

Dear Mykhayl,
Can you please explain what your point is here? Who was the Patriarch of Constantinople who crowned a Patriarch of Moscow with the help of the Russian tsar and Turkish Sultan 370 years ago?
I am really confused. Are you talking about the first Russian Patriarch of Moscow who had to be crowned by the Ecumenical Patriarch in person? And why did the Sultan of Turkey get involved in choosing a Russian Orthodox Patriarch?
Just fill in the missing pieces please and how it all ties in with the recent celebrations in Ukraine.

Because the Tsar paid off the sultan - why else?

Fr. Serge

Thanks but that still doesn't answer much:

Dear Mykhayl,
Can you please explain what your point is here? Who was the Patriarch of Constantinople who crowned a Patriarch of Moscow with the help of the Russian tsar and Turkish Sultan 370 years ago?
I am really confused. Are you talking about the first Russian Patriarch of Moscow who had to be crowned by the Ecumenical Patriarch in person? ....

Just fill in the missing pieces please and how it all ties in with the recent celebrations in Ukraine.

Слава Ісусу Христу!

OK Miller, sorry for the typo. From 988 to 1686 the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was in the canonical jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Under political pressure Patriarch Jeremias 11 of Constantinople visited Moscow in 1588. In route he passed through Ukraine. This visit set the stage for the following year’s election for Job to be the first Patriarch of Moscow. In 1686, 40 years after St. Petro Mohila's death, the Ottomans, acting on the behalf of the regent of Russia Sophia Alekseyevna, pressured the Patriarch of Constantinople into transferring the Orthodox Church of Kiev and all Rus' from the jurisdiction of Constantinople to the Patriarch of Moscow, established a century prior to that. The legality of this step is occasionally questioned to this day along with the fact that the transfer was accompanied by graft and bribery, which in church affairs amounts to an ecclesiastical crime.

By visiting Ukraine, the Ecumenical Patriarch was acknowledging the fact that there never was a canonical transfer of the See of Kyiv to the Patriarch of Moscow. The Ecumenical Patriarch never ceded his daughter church to the Moscow Patriarch. He made these statement on live TV so that millions of Ukrainians could hear the truth. Yet the Moscow Patriarch continues to repeat which serve only one purpose: - to continue the centuries old non-canonical subjugation of the Ruthenian Churches of Ukraine.

Today Turkey is promoting a Christian facade to get into the EU. The Patriarch of Constantinople as a peace negotiator between Kyiv and Moscow would not hurt. The spokesman of the breakaway Ukrainian Orthodox Kyivan Patriarch Bishop Yevstratiy stated “How can you live like neighbors when your neighbor says the house you live in is not your own house, but our common house?”. http://www.kommersant.com/p916696/r_530/Russian-Ukrainian_relations_Orthodox_Church/
After meeting Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew in Kyiv Russian Patriarch Aleksy II canceled plans to visit pro-Russian Donetsk’, Ukraine. If Russia can promote a boarder disputes with Ukraine so the latter would be prevented from joining NATO, and we all know the easiest button to push for a conflict is Religion. Saint Volodymyr’s, or Vladimir’s personal baptism occurred in the city of Korsun, or Chersones, in Crimea, Ukraine.

As our Reverend Father tried to guide us in saying “So if we're going to keep this thread going, we must accept a certain air of unreality.” I believe Father Serge is pointing out this thread is old news by now.

Old news is often still interesting. And in the wonderful world of the Christian East, old news is often still new! Something to do with one's sense of time.

Fr. Serge

I think we've moved quite far from the subject of this thread. The subject was the announcement of the visit of His All-Holiness to Ukraine.

The historical tangent that this has now taken seems to me to be proceeding down the path of politcs, something that is not permitted in this portion of the forum.

In Christ,

BOB

Bob's point is well-made and, while the historical precedents for current events have a valid point in discussion, where the thread is going now is reaching and I suggest the discussion be moved to a new thread in another forum. Any final posts on the subject of the thread should be made today - tonight it will be locked (and any intervening posts that are off-topic will be deleted, so do not waste your time and energy trying to get in a final jab).

Many years,

Neil