and what we are not giving them.

A great lecture by Terry Mattingly

This guy is spot on... Unfortunately I doubt that we will listen.

Hi John, I've tried the link twice with no results. Perhaps that's why you've gotten no response to such an interesting topic.

Peace,
Indigo

Worked for me. Listening to it now.

It does not work for me either.

What kind of player is needed?

Quicktime

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Windows Media Player also works.

Aaron

Mine only went so far, and then it...died. (or fell asleep)

FDD

It's an excellent presentation and summarizes why converts come and definitely speaks for me. It begins with the purity of and participation in the liturgy. He chastened some Orthodox for not singing and for many parishes for having so many pews. He's right on every count.

Converts are seeking stability, truthfulness, and accuracy in doctrine. They aren't running from that but running to those things. They seek mystery because it has been drained away from most other places. They aren't seeking 'pop' orthodoxy or some post VCII cheapened form of worship they are seeking more of the pure liturgy. And they seek good preaching.

As we watch our best and brightest go elsewhere I think that what has been spoken about the BCs over the last few years is coming true. Either we are called to and held accountable for taking our liturgical and doctrinal patrimony seriously or we will shrival up leaving only a handful of strong faithful parishes. As long as we live in the Chicago area Annunciation is our Church and I will give it and Father Loya all I have to give. But if we move or if Annunciation begins to make serious compromises with feminism and modernism where do we go?

CDL

I very much agreed with his declaration that those ecclesial bodies that ask less and less from their people will have fewer and fewer people, while those that ask a lot of their faithful will be rewarded with more devout and numerous adherents.

I pound on that concept with my [refraining from ad hominem here] friends who remain with people who equivocate more every year, slacken liturgical norms and secularize - through various means - once holy days, and treat once bright lines of blasphemy as "personal" issues or developed, enlightened morality in keeping with the times.

RE: Terry Mattingly's presentation

It was interesting to me that Mr Mattingly referred to the 80/20 rule. My former employer has been trying to employ 80/20 in its strategic sales plan for about six years now and has been decreased its market share by about 50% (this definitely was not the plan.)

80/20, also called the Pareto rule, can indeed bring into focus the issues which are most critical and, in the case of business, make a company more profitable. In a parish setting it can make a parish more vibrant. This gives it an energy, and enthusiasm - good singing, a strong social community, vocations and a place that people want to join.

The 80/20 principle in businnss is that 80% of sales comes from 20% of your customers. So what you do is a staged elimination of those 80% of weak customers and focusing all your attention on the 20% who give you the most sales. It must be done very skillfully or it backfires on you -- that is you lose the bulk of your customer which you "fired" and you really fail to achieve an increase in sales from your "good" customers.

From a parish perspective -- God forbid, we won't reject 80% of our "non-contributing" pewsitters. But how do you focus on the "good" contributing converts (or cradle) parishioners without "firing" the 80%.

This is the dilemma of the "Mattingly" focus. He brings up some excellent points, but with failure one become responsible for the potential loss of souls.

Without doing any Bible research, the first scriptural reference that comes to mind is the shepherd leaving the 99 sheep to look for the one lost.

Fr Deacon Paul

I think parishes are no different from any other group of human beings. There will always be those who are "on fire," those who are leaven quietly, and those who are passive observers.

At one time or another we are all in one or the other designations because we can't stay hot all the time and sometimes get tired and become passive until grace gives us a nudge and we get the ember back to fire from just a faint glow.

That's why the Lord gave us the parable of the wheat and the tares. I've been told that tares look like wheat when they are mature with the single exception that they have no grain in the ear. It's necessary that everyone have the most opportunity to get his relationship "one on one" with the Lord. But sometimes it takes a lifetime to get people on fire. On the other hand, He waits patiently to extend every opportunity for all to be saved--and that's what we pray "let all be saved by Thy grace and great mercy." It is often by the example of others that some of the passive members get caught up and change their lives. It's also why we sometimes hear of conversions of life in late years by some people that the rest think would either never come around or they suspect of being charlatans. We let the Lord look into the hearts of all of us and, in the meantime, remember not to judge the motives of others because that puts us in the place of Him.

Besides, how would any seeker find the Christians if they didn't have visible groups? A handful by themselves can go underground but it's hard to find them. Imperfect groups of people--now that's easy to find almost anywhere.

BOB

I wonder if there is a way to determine among the restful parishioners which ones are resting up for further duty and which ones are resting up as a way to withdraw from the parish and even Christian faith. I wonder how the approach would be different for each group?

CDL

Слава Ісусу Христу!

What troubles me is when you ignore and even antagonize the 80% into walking you no longer have a Church but a club. That may not effect the salvation of those who walk to another Eastern Church or even a Roman Catholic Church but how about those who gave up and go no where? Who is responsible for the ministry of the newly unchurched?

I'm both a convert and a rite switcher. I can't speak for the majority of converts because we all come from different backgrounds. I am under the impression that we are all converts, and we continually convert after every confession, liturgy, book we read, or any other way we experience God.

The things that I have always wanted in a parish is a good parish family that I can share my life with and to return the favor, and to also find a liturgy that I can live in and outside of the church. Those are the most important things I think. When I didn't find these things, I looked elsewhere for them. It has strengthened my relationship with God, but at the same time has caused a lot of pain. I guess that is part of walking on our paths though. The narrow, but joyous path. We all have different struggles and I think a lot of us, those in the "church clubs" and those who aren't "holy" enough to be in them, we lose sight of our common struggle, as we implore the Lord to have mercy on us, we should also have mercy on our neighbor.

Sorry I'm rambling, I will stop now lol.

Слава Ісусу Христу!

“I have always wanted in a parish is a good parish family” quote Mruzi

Spoken with insight. Organically families have particular perspectives and this is an Eastern trait. Parishes should be welcoming of various celebrations of orthodoxy. Expecting people to unquestionably pray, pay and obey your way does not a living church make.