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#297942 - 08/22/08 02:41 PM
Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 6942
Loc: New York
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I was looking for some information for a friend, and came across this pastoral file from the US Council of Catholic Bishops on Catholic-Orthodox marriages. Since so much of what is in this document answers questions that have been brought up on this forum, I thought that I would offer the link for reference: http://www.usccb.org/seia/5-264.pdf
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#298026 - 08/24/08 05:52 AM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: Alice]
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Member
Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 4741
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
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Dear Fellow Moderator, Bob,
For some reason, I cannot find 'make this topic stick' anymore!
I am missing something?
The only thing I find now is 'unstick this topic' under Manage Topics.
Thanks.
Alice Sticky topics?!? FDD
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#298054 - 08/24/08 01:57 PM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: ebed melech]
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3247
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
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FDD: It's amoderator/administrator function that allows certain threads/topics to be kept at the top of a given thread section so they don't move downward with the date or as new topics are introduced. You'll notice at the top of thread sections some topics with a little yellow "splash" at the left hand side of the topic. That means it's "sticky" and will not move from that spot. We can also "unstick" topics so they can slide into what Orwell called "the memory hole"--the position they would have occupied had they not been sticky (dictated by the date of their intorduction). Hope this helps. BOB
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#298073 - 08/24/08 04:57 PM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: theophan]
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Member
Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 840
Loc: Private
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Thanks. It parallels relations between those churches: so close and yet so far... because they're so close. One side or the other has to give in — either the Roman or the Orthodox spouse has to give up the full practice of his or her religion — because each believes it's the one true church. If the children are reared Roman the Orthodox spouse is in trouble and vice versa. I didn't know Rome doesn't recognise Orthodox divorce.
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#298089 - 08/25/08 12:02 AM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: The young fogey]
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Member
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 231
Loc: US
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Old fogey, your comment that "I didn't know Rome doesn't recognise Orthodox divorce" is only half the story. The pamphlet, which is an excellent introduction to ecclesiastical minefield [I know because I have been through it], does not note [unless I missed it] that the EOC does not recognize Roman annulments. This is due to EOC's view of itself as Christ's Church. I am glad Alice posted this because it is better than anything else I've seen. I do not think the EOc has anything similar.
Edited by johnzonaras (08/25/08 12:05 AM)
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#298091 - 08/25/08 02:49 AM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: johnzonaras]
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Orthodox Christian
Member
Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1207
Loc: California
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Old fogey, your comment that "I didn't know Rome doesn't recognise Orthodox divorce" is only half the story. The pamphlet, which is an excellent introduction to ecclesiastical minefield [I know because I have been through it], does not note [unless I missed it] that the EOC does not recognize Roman annulments. This is due to EOC's view of itself as Christ's Church. I am glad Alice posted this because it is better than anything else I've seen. I do not think the EOc has anything similar. Good point, John. However, I did read a few published articles about this matter. Father John Meyendorff's book is an excellent resource. I think the Greek Orthodox and the OCA have published articles on their websites too. I remember reading that if, for example, a Catholic woman wants to marry a Greek Orthodox man in the Orthodox Church, and if that Catholic has been through two annulments and then lost a third husband through death, all those marriages would probably be counted toward the "three strikes and you are out" rule (as the laity would call it). During a catechism class, my priest told us that living-in arrangements, common law marriages, and civil ceremonies would also count toward the three strikes. So if a Catholic marries a protestant in a protestant ceremony without a Catholic priest, or if a Catholic ties the knot in a civil ceremony, then those marriages could also be counted toward the "three strike" rule. Note that the Orthodox Bishop along with the Orthodox Priest must be consulted for a final decision. Unfortunately, some Catholics have stated that it is not fair because they were ignorant of that rule. In fact, I have met several couples who have left the faith declaring that religion is so political because of these man-made decisions that prevented them from getting married. They seem to miss the point that The Mystery of Crowning is a Holy Mystery. I think it would be good to link to the Holy Service here so that people can study the ceremony and see that marriage is not something to be taken lightly.
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#298166 - 08/25/08 07:36 PM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: Elizabeth Maria]
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Member
Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2213
Loc: Georgia U.S.
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Old fogey, your comment that "I didn't know Rome doesn't recognise Orthodox divorce" is only half the story. The pamphlet, which is an excellent introduction to ecclesiastical minefield [I know because I have been through it], does not note [unless I missed it] that the EOC does not recognize Roman annulments. This is due to EOC's view of itself as Christ's Church. I am glad Alice posted this because it is better than anything else I've seen. I do not think the EOc has anything similar. Good point, John. However, I did read a few published articles about this matter. Father John Meyendorff's book is an excellent resource. I think the Greek Orthodox and the OCA have published articles on their websites too. I remember reading that if, for example, a Catholic woman wants to marry a Greek Orthodox man in the Orthodox Church, and if that Catholic has been through two annulments and then lost a third husband through death, all those marriages would probably be counted toward the "three strikes and you are out" rule (as the laity would call it). During a catechism class, my priest told us that living-in arrangements, common law marriages, and civil ceremonies would also count toward the three strikes. So if a Catholic marries a protestant in a protestant ceremony without a Catholic priest, or if a Catholic ties the knot in a civil ceremony, then those marriages could also be counted toward the "three strike" rule. Note that the Orthodox Bishop along with the Orthodox Priest must be consulted for a final decision. Unfortunately, some Catholics have stated that it is not fair because they were ignorant of that rule. In fact, I have met several couples who have left the faith declaring that religion is so political because of these man-made decisions that prevented them from getting married. They seem to miss the point that The Mystery of Crowning is a Holy Mystery. I think it would be good to link to the Holy Service here so that people can study the ceremony and see that marriage is not something to be taken lightly. I've never heard this before, that "live in" arrangements counted as marriages. It this true across Orthodoxy or just some jurisdictions? Joe
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#298240 - 08/26/08 07:01 PM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
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Member
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 202
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
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Dear Joe,I am not any official spokesman for the Orthodox Church,nor for any of the jurisdictions I've served in(ROCOR,OCA,Bulgarian,and Serbian).I don't see how any "live-in" arrangements can be counted as marriages.I normally wouldn't admit anyone "shacking-up" to Holy Communion.I suspect some more liberal orthodox Clerics might have a "don't ask-don't tell" policy not only in regards to living together,but also the gay lifestyle or membership in the Masonic lodge.I CAN see why some people could see the potential for abuse,some person has multiple "live-ins" BEFORE entering his/her first "Legal" Wedding.Just from personal experiance,the only reason to allow someone living together to recieve Holy Communion might be someone coming to Confession for the first time(I've had people coming from the former Soviet state,who make their first Confession at age 60 or older!)who really didn't know that living together or a civil ceremony would be an obstacle to commune.If the person in question was living with another Christian,I would usually commune them once with the understanding the a Crowning would be needed in the future.
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#298245 - 08/26/08 09:10 PM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: Fr. Al]
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Orthodox Christian
Member
Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1207
Loc: California
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Dear Joe, Concerning live-in arrangements, especially where children were produced, the priest said that those were usually counted as one of the marriages toward the "three strikes and you are out" rule. In the few cases I have known where couples were not allowed to marry, the Bishop determined that the live-in arrangements they had proved that they were unstable and not able to make a commitment. Ultimately, the Bishop will have to make the decision after learning the full story. As Father Al stated, in cases of true ignorance where the couple did not have a religious upbringing or came from a communistic country, the pastors I have known have been more lenient. Once these couples were instructed, then they were held to a higher standard. Unfortunately for many of them, old habits have been hard to overcome. Much damage was done by not allowing children to be educated in the faith. The following article about marriage may be interesting. http://www.orthodoxcanada.org/poffiles/pof13.html
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#298275 - 08/27/08 09:29 AM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: Elizabeth Maria]
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Member
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 231
Loc: US
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Interestingly, not all Orthodox jurisdictions call dissolving a marriage ecclesiastical divorce, the term the Greek Archdiocese uses. Although my memory is foggy on the the issue, either the Antiochans or the OCA call the process permission to remarry. I have seen the grounds for ecclesiastical divorce in the Greek archdiocese listed, I remain unclear what the grounds are used on either of the two other jurisdictions I referenced above. Perhaps wrongly I was left with the impression that decision is left largely in the bishop's hands. The Greek process is very similar to the RCC annulment process in the sense that a court of clergy is convened and the person seeking the divorce has to plead his case. The process is not as drawn out as the Roman process. It would be interesting to see if the criteria in all the jurisdictions are similar. Do live in situations count? I have heard it argued both ways. Rigorists, apparently, would not consider a RCC marriage as a real marriage. I have heard that most jurisdictions do pragmatically look into the issue of former marriages even if they were not performed by Orthodox clergy. In other words, a previous track record is not ignored.
Edited by johnzonaras (08/27/08 09:38 AM)
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#298277 - 08/27/08 09:47 AM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: johnzonaras]
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Member
Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2213
Loc: Georgia U.S.
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I find all this information to be a bit surprising. I have a hard time seeing how a "live in" arrangement can be counted as a marriage. For example, (and here I am making a confession), when I was a much younger man, just out of high school, I wasn't really practicing as a Christian (and I wasn't yet either Catholic or Orthodox), but I lived with my girlfriend for about 6 months my freshman year in college. Yet I was never asked about this nor told that this counted as a marriage. And my wife and I were crowned in the Greek Melkite Church and when we became Antiochian Orthodox, our priest indicated that our marriage was accepted. Now I am wondering if I can ever become a deacon or a priest because of my pre-Orthodox (and pre-Catholic) life that I lived as a young man.
Joe
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#298284 - 08/27/08 12:23 PM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
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Member
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 231
Loc: US
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Joe, if you want an answer your question, do not rely on what you see here. Contact your bishop!
Edited by johnzonaras (08/27/08 12:24 PM)
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#298295 - 08/27/08 02:57 PM
Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
[Re: johnzonaras]
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Orthodox Christian
Member
Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1207
Loc: California
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Joe, if you want an answer your question, do not rely on what you see here. Contact your bishop! Exactly, in some cases, what a person did before their baptism and/or chrismation is not held against them if they are now living a life of repentance, which proves their stability in the faith. Again, it all depends on the Bishop and the recommendation of the priest.
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