Site Links
ByzCath.org Home
Latest News
Liturgical Calendar
Lectionary
Newest Members
paul k., Ksenia, Arivera, triplets, Fr Paul, tlduker, MrJkc, Abbendis, LouC, Ruthenian, Jenny B, Delicat Angel, Barberton.byz, Predanije, foreigner
3336 Registered Users
Who's Online
16 registered (Altar Server, AndreaW, Athanasius The L, byzanTN, christos_anesti, dochawk, Etnick, Fr. Deacon Lance, GMmcnabb, Jakub., Ksenia, Logos - Alexis, Pavel Ivanovich, Prester John, 2 invisible), 62 Guests and 11 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Private Forums
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums: The Deacon's Door (for deacons and deacon candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum (for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for access.
Latest Photo
WA Melkite English Apostolate
Forum Stats
3336 Members
21 Forums
23284 Topics
300711 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#297942 - 08/22/08 02:41 PM Catholic-Orthodox Marriage
Alice Moderator Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 6942
Loc: New York
I was looking for some information for a friend, and came across this pastoral file from the US Council of Catholic Bishops on Catholic-Orthodox marriages. Since so much of what is in this document answers questions that have been brought up on this forum, I thought that I would offer the link for reference:

http://www.usccb.org/seia/5-264.pdf

Top
#297961 - 08/22/08 07:38 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Alice]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3247
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
ALICE:

Why don't you make this sticky?

BOB

Top
#297974 - 08/23/08 03:14 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: theophan]
Alice Moderator Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 6942
Loc: New York
Dear Fellow Moderator, Bob,

For some reason, I cannot find 'make this topic stick' anymore!
I am missing something?
The only thing I find now is 'unstick this topic' under Manage Topics.

Thanks.
Alice

Top
#298026 - 08/24/08 05:52 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Alice]
ebed melech Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 4741
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Originally Posted By: Alice
Dear Fellow Moderator, Bob,

For some reason, I cannot find 'make this topic stick' anymore!
I am missing something?
The only thing I find now is 'unstick this topic' under Manage Topics.

Thanks.
Alice


Sticky topics?!?

FDD

Top
#298054 - 08/24/08 01:57 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: ebed melech]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3247
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Quote:
Sticky topics?!?


FDD:

It's amoderator/administrator function that allows certain threads/topics to be kept at the top of a given thread section so they don't move downward with the date or as new topics are introduced.

You'll notice at the top of thread sections some topics with a little yellow "splash" at the left hand side of the topic. That means it's "sticky" and will not move from that spot.

We can also "unstick" topics so they can slide into what Orwell called "the memory hole"--the position they would have occupied had they not been sticky (dictated by the date of their intorduction).

Hope this helps.

BOB

Top
#298073 - 08/24/08 04:57 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: theophan]
The young fogey Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 840
Loc: Private
Thanks. It parallels relations between those churches: so close and yet so far... because they're so close. One side or the other has to give in — either the Roman or the Orthodox spouse has to give up the full practice of his or her religion — because each believes it's the one true church. If the children are reared Roman the Orthodox spouse is in trouble and vice versa. I didn't know Rome doesn't recognise Orthodox divorce.

Top
#298089 - 08/25/08 12:02 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: The young fogey]
johnzonaras Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 231
Loc: US
Old fogey, your comment that "I didn't know Rome doesn't recognise Orthodox divorce" is only half the story. The pamphlet, which is an excellent introduction to ecclesiastical minefield [I know because I have been through it], does not note [unless I missed it] that the EOC does not recognize Roman annulments. This is due to EOC's view of itself as Christ's Church. I am glad Alice posted this because it is better than anything else I've seen. I do not think the EOc has anything similar.


Edited by johnzonaras (08/25/08 12:05 AM)

Top
#298091 - 08/25/08 02:49 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: johnzonaras]
Elizabeth Maria Offline
Orthodox Christian
Member

Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1207
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: johnzonaras
Old fogey, your comment that "I didn't know Rome doesn't recognise Orthodox divorce" is only half the story. The pamphlet, which is an excellent introduction to ecclesiastical minefield [I know because I have been through it], does not note [unless I missed it] that the EOC does not recognize Roman annulments. This is due to EOC's view of itself as Christ's Church. I am glad Alice posted this because it is better than anything else I've seen. I do not think the EOc has anything similar.


Good point, John.

However, I did read a few published articles about this matter. Father John Meyendorff's book is an excellent resource. I think the Greek Orthodox and the OCA have published articles on their websites too.

I remember reading that if, for example, a Catholic woman wants to marry a Greek Orthodox man in the Orthodox Church, and if that Catholic has been through two annulments and then lost a third husband through death, all those marriages would probably be counted toward the "three strikes and you are out" rule (as the laity would call it).

During a catechism class, my priest told us that living-in arrangements, common law marriages, and civil ceremonies would also count toward the three strikes. So if a Catholic marries a protestant in a protestant ceremony without a Catholic priest, or if a Catholic ties the knot in a civil ceremony, then those marriages could also be counted toward the "three strike" rule.

Note that the Orthodox Bishop along with the Orthodox Priest must be consulted for a final decision.

Unfortunately, some Catholics have stated that it is not fair because they were ignorant of that rule. In fact, I have met several couples who have left the faith declaring that religion is so political because of these man-made decisions that prevented them from getting married. They seem to miss the point that The Mystery of Crowning is a Holy Mystery. I think it would be good to link to the Holy Service here so that people can study the ceremony and see that marriage is not something to be taken lightly.

Top
#298166 - 08/25/08 07:36 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Elizabeth Maria]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2213
Loc: Georgia U.S.
Originally Posted By: Elizabeth Maria
Originally Posted By: johnzonaras
Old fogey, your comment that "I didn't know Rome doesn't recognise Orthodox divorce" is only half the story. The pamphlet, which is an excellent introduction to ecclesiastical minefield [I know because I have been through it], does not note [unless I missed it] that the EOC does not recognize Roman annulments. This is due to EOC's view of itself as Christ's Church. I am glad Alice posted this because it is better than anything else I've seen. I do not think the EOc has anything similar.


Good point, John.

However, I did read a few published articles about this matter. Father John Meyendorff's book is an excellent resource. I think the Greek Orthodox and the OCA have published articles on their websites too.

I remember reading that if, for example, a Catholic woman wants to marry a Greek Orthodox man in the Orthodox Church, and if that Catholic has been through two annulments and then lost a third husband through death, all those marriages would probably be counted toward the "three strikes and you are out" rule (as the laity would call it).

During a catechism class, my priest told us that living-in arrangements, common law marriages, and civil ceremonies would also count toward the three strikes. So if a Catholic marries a protestant in a protestant ceremony without a Catholic priest, or if a Catholic ties the knot in a civil ceremony, then those marriages could also be counted toward the "three strike" rule.

Note that the Orthodox Bishop along with the Orthodox Priest must be consulted for a final decision.

Unfortunately, some Catholics have stated that it is not fair because they were ignorant of that rule. In fact, I have met several couples who have left the faith declaring that religion is so political because of these man-made decisions that prevented them from getting married. They seem to miss the point that The Mystery of Crowning is a Holy Mystery. I think it would be good to link to the Holy Service here so that people can study the ceremony and see that marriage is not something to be taken lightly.


I've never heard this before, that "live in" arrangements counted as marriages. It this true across Orthodoxy or just some jurisdictions?

Joe

Top
#298240 - 08/26/08 07:01 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
Fr. Al Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 202
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
Dear Joe,I am not any official spokesman for the Orthodox Church,nor for any of the jurisdictions I've served in(ROCOR,OCA,Bulgarian,and Serbian).I don't see how any "live-in" arrangements can be counted as marriages.I normally wouldn't admit anyone "shacking-up" to Holy Communion.I suspect some more liberal orthodox Clerics might have a "don't ask-don't tell" policy not only in regards to living together,but also the gay lifestyle or membership in the Masonic lodge.I CAN see why some people could see the potential for abuse,some person has multiple "live-ins" BEFORE entering his/her first "Legal" Wedding.Just from personal experiance,the only reason to allow someone living together to recieve Holy Communion might be someone coming to Confession for the first time(I've had people coming from the former Soviet state,who make their first Confession at age 60 or older!)who really didn't know that living together or a civil ceremony would be an obstacle to commune.If the person in question was living with another Christian,I would usually commune them once with the understanding the a Crowning would be needed in the future.

Top
#298245 - 08/26/08 09:10 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Fr. Al]
Elizabeth Maria Offline
Orthodox Christian
Member

Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1207
Loc: California
Dear Joe,

Concerning live-in arrangements, especially where children were produced, the priest said that those were usually counted as one of the marriages toward the "three strikes and you are out" rule.

In the few cases I have known where couples were not allowed to marry, the Bishop determined that the live-in arrangements they had proved that they were unstable and not able to make a commitment.

Ultimately, the Bishop will have to make the decision after learning the full story.

As Father Al stated, in cases of true ignorance where the couple did not have a religious upbringing or came from a communistic country, the pastors I have known have been more lenient. Once these couples were instructed, then they were held to a higher standard. Unfortunately for many of them, old habits have been hard to overcome. Much damage was done by not allowing children to be educated in the faith.

The following article about marriage may be interesting.

http://www.orthodoxcanada.org/poffiles/pof13.html

Top
#298275 - 08/27/08 09:29 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Elizabeth Maria]
johnzonaras Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 231
Loc: US
Interestingly, not all Orthodox jurisdictions call dissolving a marriage ecclesiastical divorce, the term the Greek Archdiocese uses. Although my memory is foggy on the the issue, either the Antiochans or the OCA call the process permission to remarry. I have seen the grounds for ecclesiastical divorce in the Greek archdiocese listed, I remain unclear what the grounds are used on either of the two other jurisdictions I referenced above. Perhaps wrongly I was left with the impression that decision is left largely in the bishop's hands. The Greek process is very similar to the RCC annulment process in the sense that a court of clergy is convened and the person seeking the divorce has to plead his case. The process is not as drawn out as the Roman process. It would be interesting to see if the criteria in all the jurisdictions are similar. Do live in situations count? I have heard it argued both ways. Rigorists, apparently, would not consider a RCC marriage as a real marriage. I have heard that most jurisdictions do pragmatically look into the issue of former marriages even if they were not performed by Orthodox clergy. In other words, a previous track record is not ignored.


Edited by johnzonaras (08/27/08 09:38 AM)

Top
#298277 - 08/27/08 09:47 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: johnzonaras]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2213
Loc: Georgia U.S.
I find all this information to be a bit surprising. I have a hard time seeing how a "live in" arrangement can be counted as a marriage. For example, (and here I am making a confession), when I was a much younger man, just out of high school, I wasn't really practicing as a Christian (and I wasn't yet either Catholic or Orthodox), but I lived with my girlfriend for about 6 months my freshman year in college. Yet I was never asked about this nor told that this counted as a marriage. And my wife and I were crowned in the Greek Melkite Church and when we became Antiochian Orthodox, our priest indicated that our marriage was accepted. Now I am wondering if I can ever become a deacon or a priest because of my pre-Orthodox (and pre-Catholic) life that I lived as a young man.

Joe

Top
#298284 - 08/27/08 12:23 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
johnzonaras Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 231
Loc: US
Joe, if you want an answer your question, do not rely on what you see here. Contact your bishop!


Edited by johnzonaras (08/27/08 12:24 PM)

Top
#298295 - 08/27/08 02:57 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: johnzonaras]
Elizabeth Maria Offline
Orthodox Christian
Member

Registered: 12/20/03
Posts: 1207
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: johnzonaras
Joe, if you want an answer your question, do not rely on what you see here. Contact your bishop!


Exactly, in some cases, what a person did before their baptism and/or chrismation is not held against them if they are now living a life of repentance, which proves their stability in the faith. Again, it all depends on the Bishop and the recommendation of the priest.

Top
#298298 - 08/27/08 04:04 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Elizabeth Maria]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2213
Loc: Georgia U.S.
Thanks my friends for the helpful responses. I am going to ask my spiritual father about this.

Joe

Top
#298301 - 08/27/08 04:30 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2213
Loc: Georgia U.S.

Top
#298316 - 08/27/08 07:47 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
johnzonaras Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 231
Loc: US


This document is OCA and is rather interesting.

The OCA uses permission to remarry. It contains the following text:
2. The permission to remarry according to the "Order of Second Marriage" may eventually be granted divorced persons.

When persons who have obtained a civil divorce seek clarification of their status in the Church, the priest must write a report of the entire matter to the local diocesan bishop. He must state clearly his analysis of the situation and make concrete suggestions for action by the bishop. In his analysis he must consider not only the formal status, but also the total spiritual condition of the persons involved. The final hierarchical decision, which may accept, reject, or modify the local pastor’s suggestions, will also give the reasons behind the decision. A period of penance may be imposed on one or both partners of a marriage that has ended in divorce.

If this reflects the actual procedure, the decision is entirely in the bishop's hands and seems to be based on the recommendation of the couple's pastor. There does not seem to be an actual hearing as is the case in the Greek jurisdiction.

Top
#298616 - 09/01/08 11:05 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: johnzonaras]
Fr. Al Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 202
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
Dear Joe,I can't speak for your jurisdiction,but I can't see how anything you may have done before being either Catholic or Orthodox could affect your future ordination.What counts is that you are the"husband of one wife" since joining the church,and,God willing" will remain so.

Top
#298842 - 09/03/08 04:46 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Fr. Al]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2213
Loc: Georgia U.S.
Originally Posted By: Fr. Al
Dear Joe,I can't speak for your jurisdiction,but I can't see how anything you may have done before being either Catholic or Orthodox could affect your future ordination.What counts is that you are the"husband of one wife" since joining the church,and,God willing" will remain so.


Thanks Fr. Al. As it happens, I met an Orthodox priest today (he was our convocation speaker) and we chatted about various things. He indicated to me what you have told me is correct, that things that happened 20 years ago, long before a person joined either the Catholic or Orthodox Church will not be held against the person.

Joe

Top
#299648 - 09/16/08 12:38 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
Prester John Online   content
Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 157
Loc: USA
My experience in this matter is different. I'm an Orthodox Priest (OCA) and I know many men who were told that a previous marriage is an impediment, whether or not it was in the Church.

Just my experience. I'm happily the husband of one wife!

Top
#299692 - 09/16/08 06:48 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Prester John]
Fr. Al Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 202
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
Dear Fr. Is this your own bishop's policy or an OCA policy in general? I ask this because I know an OCA subdeacon who was a cradle Orthodox and ordained subdeacon after his SECOND marriage.This was confirmed by the man fomer pastor who said that the bishop in question said that the subdeacon could never advance higher.I'll not go into my personnal opinion on the matter nor whether or not Orthodoxy considers Latin or Byzantine mysteries as valid,but what about the convert is baptised into the church?I realise that an Orthodox who is twice married should not be advanced to ANY rank.I realise also that there is room for abuse,i.e.,a Greek Old Calender priestmonk left his monastery and later married and was re-ordained in the Greek Archdiocese;certainly the Sacrements are not something one should play around with,but I'm speaking in general terms with the understanding that Baptism washes away all sins.

Top
#299711 - 09/17/08 02:07 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Fr. Al]
Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 4041
Loc: Dublin
It is not a question of sin. Assuming that both marriages were proper, neither is or was sinful in itself. It is simply a matter of the requirements which apply to a candidate for Holy Orders.

There was for quite some time an Orthodox subdeacon on the Forum. He mentioned once that he remained a subdeacon because he had a poor voice and would not have been able to serve as priest or deacon properly. No one would suggest that a man with a poor voice who converted to Orthodoxy would suddenly be able to sing like Caruso!

Fr. Serge

Top
#299909 - 09/20/08 05:47 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: Serge Keleher]
dochawk Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Las Vegas
Gee, Father, up until this post, I had always assumed that had I found Eastern Catholicism twenty or thirty years earlier, I would have been a priest.

I have an uncommonly strong and powerful voice, and need no microphone in an auditorium. But I apparently can't carry a tune, and couldn't really tell the difference in tones when they changed for the RDL . . .

hawk, now past practical age for the seminary anyway

Top
#299919 - 09/20/08 11:44 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: dochawk]
JBenedict Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 20
Loc: New York, NY
The Latin Code of Canon law used to prohibit the ordination of a man who couldn't sing.

Top
#304188 - 11/13/08 10:10 AM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: JBenedict]
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22222
Loc: Canada
Dear Friends,

The issue of singing is an important one. Some have said that if Moses had heard me singing, there would have been another commandment . . .

During a face-to-face meeting with a Cantorka from this Forum, I learned that I had a good voice, but needed voice training.

Perhaps if my parents had sent me for voice training lessons (rather than that silly piano), I could have truly become a Metropolitan, as my dad had dreamed about . . .

It is a relatively simple thing to train one's voice to be at the service of the Church and there shouldn't be one person who feels a vocation to be excluded because of this issue.

Alex

Top
#304228 - 11/13/08 08:21 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: dochawk]
A Simple Sinner Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/07
Posts: 1090
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: dochawk
Gee, Father, up until this post, I had always assumed that had I found Eastern Catholicism twenty or thirty years earlier, I would have been a priest.

I have an uncommonly strong and powerful voice, and need no microphone in an auditorium. But I apparently can't carry a tune, and couldn't really tell the difference in tones when they changed for the RDL . . .

hawk, now past practical age for the seminary anyway


May the Lord forgive me, but our bishops have demonstrated in times past that candidates for the presbyterate who are (ahem) "differently abled" in their musical abilities may still, provided other criteria are met, be ordained.

Top
#304475 - 11/16/08 06:50 PM Re: Catholic-Orthodox Marriage [Re: A Simple Sinner]
dochawk Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Las Vegas
In my case, I would surely be meant for the classroom, rather than the parish.

At my reunion last year, I discovered that there are only four Jesuits now teaching at my high school, all part time frown It probably isn't much better at my college.

The impact that clergy, nuns, and brothers have just by being in the classroom is often overlooked frown

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2008. All rights reserved.