So, I was just watching Michael Dukakis on Larry King, and decided to do some reading on his history. In the process, I came across this article, which to me as a Catholic is disturbing. I'd like to know some of the Orthodox posters' views on how the Greek Archdiocese reacted to Dukakis' pro-abortion stances. The article spends much time juxtaposing the Catholic Church's defense of the traditional Christian view of right to life when Geraldine Ferraro (a Catholic) was running as VP in '84 against the Greek Church's relative "free pass" to Mr. Dukakis.

From http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht...agewanted=print



I am particularly bothered by Charles Moskos, whomever that is, and his comments about how Catholicism's just so hung up on defending life in the womb from being murdered because it's "legalistic" and the Orthodox hierarchy doesn't say much about it because Orthodoxy is oh-so-mystical. I think that's unfair to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy, to paint it that way.

Do you think this situation has changed in the two decades since this happened? I guess you can't know for sure because you haven't had a Greek rise to that level of stature since then, but what would be your guesses? I would imagine that as the GOA becomes less ethnic, it has changed a little. I would hope so.

Alexis

The note about the Senator's marriage to a Jew interests me. Was she quietly baptized "for the occasion"? If not, did the marriage take place in an Orthodox Church? Or were they married in a synagogue? Or was there simply a civil ceremony?

This is a more serious question than one might think, because the canons (cf. Council in Trullo) absolutely forbid a marriage between an Orthodox Christian and a non-Christian, and the service-books make no provision whatever for such a wedding service.

As for the attempt to get out of the problems by saying that Dukakis is valuable for those points on which we agree, that could be said about, literally, absolutely anyone. Adolf Hitler liked dogs, and so do I.

Fr. Serge

Sigh... Repeat something often enough, eh?

Quote:
''Theologically, Greek Orthodoxy is much looser and more centered on mystery than the much more legalistic Roman Catholicism,'' said Charles Moskos

That sort of verbiage does not and cannot justify support for abortion! One might legitimately discuss how, as a matter of tactics, it would be best to pursue the goal of stopping the abortions (the murder of doctors is unacceptable, even though it might sound superficially attractive). My own thought in the matter tends to be that this is best done by concerted, consistent efforts to reach and change public opinion; many others think that it is best to seek to change the existing laws permitting abortion. Since by God's grace I live in a place where abortion is illegal, I am perhaps more sensitive to attempts to manipulate public opinion than I might be if I lived somewhere that legalizes "abortion on demand".

But that discussion on tactics is not an attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable!

Fr. Serge

This perhaps sums it up the best.

For this reason, it does not like getting involved in the country's politics.

This does not mean that it condones abortion and that it is not considered a grave sin, with period of excommunication associated with it. However, like the conservative and Orthodox Jews, it simply does not like being 'activist' against the existing laws of the land. As tragic as abortion is, and as horribly and sinfully misguided those who think it is a 'fundamental right' are, the sad truth is that whether it is legal or not, it will always be available.

Our tax dollars should not pay for it, because in that, all of our hands become bloodied. However, does that mean because we pay taxes that we are to be excommunicated? Does that mean that because we are Americans and our land has this law that we too are guilty of the sin? Along this line of thinking, perhaps, the Greek Orthodox Church does not condemn politicians. The politician may be personally morally opposed to abortion.

This is a very tough moral dilemma. Surely, the murder of innocents is tragic, but isn't the popular culture which glamorizes sexual promiscuity just as tragic? Why do we sit back and allow colleges to dictate sexual mores by dorming men and women in joint bathrooms and dorm floors? Why do we sit back and allow colleges to allow men and women to be together without chaperones? Why do we give money to Hollywood by seeing the movies they produce? Why are we not marching on Hollywood against this culture of sex which they have imposed and pushed on our children, young people, and young adults, and on the whole world? Surely, no one can say that the logical outcome of all the sexual activity which occurs (whether we want to accept it or turn a blind eye doesn't matter--it is happening) is often abortion.

Are we not just as responsible for these abortions then by also telling our young people that they must be educated and living on their own before they can get married? Shouldn't we be doing everything to change our culture back to one where young people, as is the norm that God created for them, were getting married instead of waiting for their careers to take off, their diplomas to be granted, their nest egg for a house to be saved up, etc.? In many Muslim countries, young married couples live with a set of parents in the beginning. Why is that so 'not the thing to do' in the U.S.? How can we expect then these young people who are not getting married until their thirties to also be chaste? They aren't living with their families even when they are not married.

The point I am getting to is that the whole lousy system of what is expected of young people to do to live 'mainstream' in the U.S. (and Europe has caught on) has created the problem of pre-marital sexuality and its consequence which is abortion.

What I find odd lately is how many people lately are uncomfortable with Sarah Palin's daughter. Why? She is getting married to the father of her baby and she did not have an abortion. "Well", some answer, "she is so young". That is the mentality that has created the mess we have today! That is exactly the age that young people should be getting married. That is the age God intended for His people to get married, and to not be tempted into years of sin.

So think about it: the reactions I hear everywhere from people I know and people I don't, from the television and from the man on the street is: we rather not know!! THAT is the ultimate tragedy of abortion...so many people just don't want to know...When was the last time you saw a pregnant teen in your church? I can bet that there have been many, but they just haven't kept the babies. 'It isn't something that happens in solid middle class America, in Orthodox churches, in Catholic churches, in this or that community...etc...' But it does, and the answer to why we don't see them is: abortion.

Parents and others don't want to know that so many young people are engaging in sex...until its too late. Yet, when the person chooses to have the baby it becomes so 'taboo'. Without knowing, or perhaps without wanting it, what the reaction to Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy is bring out into the open is that those very reactions are ultimately supporting abortion.

Alice

Although not new news, it is certainly distressing to read. Equally as distressing in my opinion is participation of church leaders at the Democratic Convention. I think Archbishop Chaput's snubbing was actually quite a complement.



The Pew Forum is probably a good resource since it surveys the attitudes of the religous landscape. If you look at their comparison page in the social and political views section, you'll see Orthodox respondents come out looking heavily like the mainline.

But, Alice, you say:



But Orthodox priests, and even bishops had no trouble marching and demonstrating with the likes of MLK Jr. and others across the country in the Civil Rights Movement. What's the difference? They were actively lobbying for a change in law and policy back then, when people's lives were only very rarely at stake, and yet, when millions of innocents are slaughtered by their own mothers every year, they can't do the same?

You'd think with all the disarray in the Catholic Church after Vatican II, the roles would be reversed. I guess sometimes stories like this make me wonder what the point of a good liturgy is when it doesn't translate into making us behave more like Christians.

Alexis

With all due respect, I have made many points that no Catholic seems to want to address. Are we not equally guilty of supporting abortion when we inadvertently keep quiet about the culture of sex? Where is the voice of the Catholic church in this arena? The issue of making abortion illegal is not as black and white as it is potrayed. Our cultural landscape has changed since that law went into effect. Dating, on the great part, is no longer a chaste pasttime as it was in the 1950's. Ending legalized abortion is not going to end abortions or the culture of sex. However, ending the culture of sex will make a great dent in the number of abortions, legal or illegal.

There is a whole grey area of sexual immorality imposed on our culture and perpetuated by all of us in keeping up with the American ideals...college, graduate school, living on one's own, career, money, down payment for a house, and THEN marriage.

Anyway, as for the Greek Orthodox Church marching or not marching, I would honestly say that more of the battle is being waged in our own communities...in catechising people about the sin of abortion, in hearing confessions from those who have had them, from giving spiritual healing, counseling and love so that they can move on, forgive themselves, and be the Christians that God wants them to be. 'Go and sin no more', in essence.

On the other hand, I will also concede that another factor in not joining this movement in a loud and vocal way may also be because we are so dependent upon the financial support of those Orthodox christians who are Democrats. Therefore, not wanting to offend anybody overtly, we stay out of this particular political issue and catechise to them privately and covertly.

I used to be critical of this approach of my church, but have come to think that too much strong protest creates the opposite effect...and that perhaps a more gentle, pastoral and quiet method to the masses of one's own faithful is indeed best.

After all, are we fighting for life and souls, or for a law? What good would that law be if we could keep people from using it? The law would mean nothing if we could render it useless.

I have come to believe that the war to make abortion illegal is being lost because the tactic and the strategy is wrong. We are ignoring the enemy's inroads in his other guises...

For instance, instead of keeping horrific late term abortion permanently illegal, and moving quietly for more victories after that victory, the vocal pro-life movement has created the opposite effect in the pro-choice movement..a reaction of fear, hysteria, and rebellion. Because these passions have been roused in the 'enemy' camp, the evil one is confusing them into a state of illogic and desensitization.

As for your last remark Alexis, I think that is unfair. I don't know that Catholics are having any less abortions than Orthodox in the U.S. I also don't think that saying that the Orthodox are not behaving like Christians because they chose to not be heavily involved in the politics of abortion is fair either.

It is this very judgementalism on the part of many Roman Catholics that has created more resistance and more madness on the part of the pro-choicers...it is the very strategy that I was referring to as backfiring. Judgementalism and intolerance are the very things that make conservative Christians hated, feared and are turning many young people away from organized religion.

In Christ,
Alice

Alice,

Two excellent posts! I agree with everything you have said.

Joe

Alice,

Thank you for your thoughts. There is certainly a lot to think about and you make many good points, and I agree with you on the whole.

Please understand that I wasn't saying that Orthodox act somehow "less Christian" than Catholics in this regard, but just that I do not think the silence by Orthodox hierarchs in regard to this case is appropriate.

And if you read the article, Archbishop Iakovos dismissed those in your Church who would seek to correct Mr. Dukakis by calling them "small people." With all due respect to His Eminence Iakovos, God rest his soul, this comment comes off not only as snobby, but it *appears* to give the impression that it's all about politics and power, and as you say, the Church is willing to compromise to as not to offend members with money who donate to the Archdiocese.

Alexis

Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI? Theology of the Body? The repeated declarations of the Holy See against divorce, contraception, pornography, de facto unions, pre-marital sex, the loss of the sense of sin? Cardinals who thundered versus sexual corruption such as John O'Connor, Jaime Sin, Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, Alfred Bengsch, Marcelo Gonzalez Martin, Gustaaf Joos and Edouard Gagnon? How about living luminaries such as Francis Arinze and Angelo Scola? How about the hundreds of Catholic theologians, pastors and writers who have made it their life's work to defend every aspect of the Christian vision of human life, family and sexuality?

In the reigns of Pope Pius XI and Pius XII there were magisterial declarations versus immorality in film, and John XXIII issued repeated condemnations of immodesty in women's dress. These remain in effect.

The fact is that NO OTHER CHURCH IN THE WORLD has been as comprehensive and as uncompromising in its open war on the corruption of human sexuality, as the Catholic Church.

The abortion issue is one of the reasons why I think the Holy See should cultivate relations with the Russian Orthodox Church. Whatever the faults of Russian Orthodoxy -- and these are many --the fact remains that Russian Orthodoxy (MP and ROCOR) and its daughter churches (OCA, for instance) have been strongly vocal against abortion (albeit much of this pro-life activity is unknown to most Catholics). Yes, it is true that Russia has high levels of abortion, but these have in fact significantly lessened since the Communist era, and honesty demands that we Catholics recognize the serious and earnest efforts of the Russians on pro-life issues. We should -- IMHO -- accept Bishop Hilarion's offer of a united front between Rome and Moscow.

In contrast -- and I believe that the question demands to be asked -- can the Holy See count on the Greek churches to stand up publicly against abortion? I hope so, but some recent examples give little cause for optimism on this matter.

(In fairness we must also point out that Patriarch Athenagoras did openly support Humanae Vitae)

Dear Alexis,

To a great degree what you observe in this comment and this attitude is correct..that administration was like that, it was much to the dislike of many faithful, and there is no hiding it. There was an immigrant mentality that was more interested in presenting ethnic achievers and achievements over matters of the soul and faith. Greek Orthodox priests and hierarchs under four hundred years of Ottoman Turk occupation were 'ethnarks' (those leaders who kept the ethnicity alive)...this special leadership position came over to the new world with immigrants, was ingrained in the psyche of the recently liberated Greek person, and being that it is only a hundred years since that liberation from the Ottomans, it will take time to diffuse that mentality...

Regards,
Alice

Dear AsianPilgrim,

Sadly, you seem to be missing the points that I was trying to make, and I am a great admirer of all the Popes. My statements had nothing to do with them or with offending the Catholic Church, whom I have always have had high admiration for...

In Christ,
Alice

Making excuses for contraception and the deafening indifference to abortion (not the same as not getting played by cynical politicians) are together a black eye on American Orthodoxy.

Such harsh, offensive, non charitable and judgemental remarks do more to put a black eye on the anti-abortion movement, and do a disservice to Christianity working together for good. Such an attitude also does no good for all the young people who have fallen into the great lie of sexual license promoted everywhere in their world.

Alice, Moderator

Dear Alice,

Thanks for your thoughtful posting. This Catholic does want to address the points you raise; as I hint in my previous posting focusing all the attention on the politicians does not solve the problem.




Yes, inadvertently keeping quiet about the anticulture of sex is a form of supporting abortion. John Paul II and Benedict XVI have both stressed the anticulture several times; many Catholics do not seem to have understood the message



You are correct. We have an overabundance of people who look for the quick fix and simply want the anti-abortion laws restored. I'm not opposed to restoring the laws, but it is far more important to change public opinion.



I couldn't agree more!



Amen and Amen! I am thoroughly sick of people belligerently threatening me because I do not share their politics. When I was still living in Canada someone asked me how I had voted in a recent election. I answered, truthfully, that I had voted for the New Democratic Party. My interlocutor then asked me why the NDP supports abortion. I said that I didn't know, but I would suspect that the noisy walkout of many pro-life people handed the victory to the "pro-choice" group on the proverbial silver platter.

By the way, I am myself 66 years of age. One need not be young to be annoyed by judgmentalism and intolerance!

No doubt this present posting will have various people throwing heavy objects at me, even though I am not the enemy. It's more than time that these people realized that their behaviour is often counterproductive.

Thank you again for your posting.

with every blessing for you and Penteli,

Fr. Serge

Amen Alice! The self righteousness with which some Catholics promote their rigid anti-contraception doctrine actually turns people off to the culture of life and the positive view of sexuality that is contained in Christianity.

Joe

I want to say that the labeling of all pro-choice people as pro-abortion is not helpful, nor is it necessarily accurate. Don't misunderstand me. I am 100% prolife and if it were up to me, I would ban all abortions except to save the life of the mother. However, I recognize that there is a difference between those pro-choice persons who see abortion as a tragedy and something they personally oppose and those pro-choice advocates who think that abortion is the greatest thing to happen to women.

I disagree with the viewpoint articulated by many politicians that they are personally opposed to abortion but they do not believe that they can make that decision for other women. Yes, I disagree with this view, but I do understand it and I see it more as a mistaken political view than a mistaken moral view.

Saying that a pro-choice person is pro-abortion is like saying that a person who believes in the decriminalization of drugs is pro-drugs or someone who opposed the criminalization of smoking is pro-smoking.

Joe

Dear Father Serge,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I am glad that you understood what I was trying to say.

Respectfully,
Alice

Fr. Serge, God bless you and thank you for your post!

Joe

As someone who has actually worked in the pro-life movement I have to take some aim at what has been said. Pro-lifers for the most part are not just after new laws. We promote the total package. Prolifers run crisis pregnancy services, post-abortion counseling, maternity homes,medical care,baby care, adoption servies, families that adopt all kinds of children, and helping folks live chaste lives. Catholics have homes, the OCA has a home, and so do the Evangelicals.

Many of us in the movement has seen personally what the pro-abortion industry armed with the democratic party has done to them. Liberal judges and pro-abortion groups have gone after pro-lifers with a vengence. They have silenced free speech and sued prolifers into bankruptcy. They consistantly use the courts to do the dirty work. Every prolife worker can tell you stories. Look at the stats as to how much money the abortion industry gives to the DNC. That is why we get a little upset.

Every pro-life worker I know not only goes after abortion but goes after the smut that got us to this culture of death that we are in. It is hand in hand.

Bernard Nathensen who was once an abortionist and was part of NARAL (Group that helped get Roe vs Wade)He talks alot about it. He has since converted and Cardinal O'Conner of Blessed Memory baptized him into the Faith. Read his book and you can see much of the history of the abortion movement.

Of course we need to change hearts first. Why not do both? We can have no justice in the land until we protect our unborn. I don't know any prolifer who isn't working on changing the heart of some pro-choice friend or loved one. Many abortion workers have stopped doing this due to someone loving and praying them out of this horrible buisness. SO many people I know go to Masses, prayer servies, etc to end abortion. Little old ladies who can't walk with a sign but they do greater work by praying a rosary. All of it is vital work.

Hold the cotton pickin phone one second, Joe. Before there is a pile-on in semantics against Serge, it is worth considering something.

Namely, Serge is Orthodox.

He is not a member of the Catholic Church. It is worth remembering - before a pile on - that some folks in the Orthodox Churches do still hold on to the same teaching the +KALISTOS wrote about in his 1963 edition of the now revised The Orthodox Church. Namely:

I made the distinction between not being played politically and not caring or being simply wrong on abortion.

I stand by what I wrote.

Church membership is nothing to do with it. Online I don't represent any jurisdiction.

Speaking as someone who is Orthodox, I think the Catholics have been consistent in their positions. Consistent not only in actively supporting pro life movements, but in opposition to the overall negative aspects of our society that all play in to abortion. In other words the culture of death. I think this is why they are so often the targets of attack, and why Archbishop Chaput was shunned by the DNC. Personally as I said, I would wear that as a badge of honor.

To me, the choice is stark. Here in the Philadelphia area the Obama campaign is saying in constantly repeating radio ads that if McCain is elected legal abortion will immediately disappear (a ludicrous claim in and of itself, even if McCain wished it so). It is obvious what voting for Obama means and who supports him - the militant secular segment of our society, planned parenthood, etc.

I think it's a shame that examples like what this thread exemplify exist. It is of course not only an Orthodox problem, but the silence of the bishops to me says a lot; and speaking at the DNC to me is simply inexcusable given what they advocate. It would not be surprising to me then that by not actively and publicly opposing abortion, that it in fact does not get much play in private catechesis. I don't know if the Pew stats I posted on page 1 give light to that, but to me they aren't encouraging.

Dear Simple Sinner,

This forum has a rule of charity.

Terms such as 'cotton pickin' are highly offensive to Black Americans.

Referring to a priest of the Greek-CATHOLIC Church as 'Serge' and claiming that he is Orthodox and not Catholic is also offensive in its intent and presumption.

We have all had our say. Unfortunately, it always boils down to anger, and that is where, IMHO, the evil one claims victory.

Dear Andrew,

I have much respect for the Catholic church's social concern about the horror of abortion.

I think that they are courageous in their stand, and I know that they have also tried to work on the culture, but not as vocally, successfully and tirelessly as they have on overturning Roe vs. Wade. When they take on Hollywood with the same veracity, perhaps teens will stop having sex as much as they are, and they won't find themselves in the difficult position of being pregnant in a society which will frown upon them for being so, and a society where marriage to the equally young father is almost always not going to happen.(As I said before, the reactions to Sarah Palin's daughter speak volumes.)

Please remember that the innate difference between the Catholic church and the Orthodox is that the Catholic church, to its great honour, since the days of St. Benedict, has taken part in the social aspect of Christian care for the poor, the ill, the victim. Western society has been greatly blessed by this service.

The Orthodox church, though deficient in this regard, serves a complimentary purpose to Christianity...by nature, Orthodoxy has always been and always will be a monastic religion. The purpose of monasticism is personal deprivation to achieve theosis and pray for the world. With their holy prayers, Western society has been greatly blessed, and without them, may not have even existed any longer.

Do not think, for one moment, that Orthodox priests are not privately ministering and catechising about abortion. I have been in enough Orthodox classes to know this, and have also heard priests talk about the ministering and pastoral healing they are doing in confessions to also know that this is true.

Words are not enough. Popular culture is becoming stronger and stronger, and the most dedicated youth leaders in the Orthodox church and the Catholic church are losing ground. (Even when they are successful in the high school agers, they lose when those high school students go off to colleges because dorming away at college is 'the thing to do'...and parents are paying ridiculously exurbetant amounts of money (Europeans are aghast at the cost of our colleges and universities) to send their children there to be baptized by the fire of 'immoral' behaviour.)

I have seen this reality in Orthodox churches and in Catholic high schools. Infact, my daughter went to a private RC academy, and there was much going on there in the sexual realm. Fortunately, the headmistress, a nun, was not in denial, and brought in the best female Catholic motivational speakers on morality for three day retreats. The approach of this speaker was not judgemental, but realistic. She was impressive. This is what we need more of to stop the murders of the preborn. While the pro-lifers are marching, young teenaged RC (and others) men and women are doing exactly that which will bring them to the point of abortion.

There is a whole segment of unknown young men and women who need this approach more than being yelled at by some with intolerant tones and judgemental words. Those very tones are heard on this board. They do not work. They have only created the opposite effect. Your children are young. When they get older and will hopefully feel free enough to discuss with you all that is going on with their peers, in their schools, in their college dorms, etc., you may see that, as conservative Christians, we need to take a different approach to this great moral crisis which we find ourselves in this 21st century.

Also, let's not steer the conversation into the world of politics, because although I generally vote Republican, I am sad to say that I think that politics cannot change the prevailing morality of the nation...I was hoping that it could, but the polarization of Americans and the blurring of morality has become and is increasingly becoming too extreme in this country, and the reactions of those persons with liberal moral thought have become too strong and misguided for any common ground...I don't know what will work, and I am not saying that we shouldn't keep on trying to make abortion illegal, or atleast to have more severe restrictions, but what I do know is that it is time for Americans to stop being judgemental and to open their eyes to what is being fed to and imposed on the young generations, and what kind of universe of thought and behaviour those young people are living in. I also think that equating birth control with abortion is also alienating young and older people alike, and is actually turning off many people to joining the forces of the pro-life movement.

As far as being realistic to what is going on with our youth, nfact, the only well known Christian leader of any denomination which I have ever heard actually face up to and speak about that alternate 'universe' was not RC, or Orthodox, but was actually the Evangelical preacher, Pat Robertson!

Alice, Moderator

All: I advise everyone to continue their discussions charitably and calmly or I will ask the Administrators to consider closing this thread.

My appreciative thanks to Alice and to Joe for their gracious reception of my post. I really was expecting an avalanche of brickbats (I'm sensitized - a priest friend of mine back in 2,000 was threatened with instant physical violence because he was supporting Al Gore - the would-be assailant had only recently become Catholic).

But I was shocked to read this from our Simple Sinner:



I am not offended by being called "Orthodox", rather the contrary. But I would honestly have thought that almost anyone on the Forum would be aware that I am a Greek-Catholic priest, in perfectly good standing, serving the Greek-Catholic community in Dublin (and by extension in the rest of Ireland, since there are faithful all over the country and I am the only priest). My profile lists my religious affiliation as "Greek-Catholic".

Nevertheless I trust that this was simply a misunderstanding, rather than an attempt to throw me out of the Church!

I have preached against abortion, and urged a pastoral letter on the matter from Patriarch Lubomyr (such a letter has not yet appeared, but the Patriarch is elderly, nearly blind, and has an overwhelming list of problems demanding his attention).

fraternally in Christ,

Fr. Serge

Alice - allow me to correct you.

the reference to Serge was meaning the poster known as the young fogey NOT Fr Serge.

Fr Serge - you can breathe again

Politically abortion isn't a factor in how I vote (or this year not vote) - I know the pols really don't care/won't change anything. I appreciate the 'other issues override this' argument, and people voting for Gore for example often have the best intentions.

ASimpleSinner wasn't being rude to Fr Serge - he was referring to me as I used to go by Serge online and, not that it matters because as I said I don't represent any jurisdiction, became Orthodox 13 years ago.

But as he said, until the mid-20th century (as reflected in the first edition of Met. Kallistos' book) the Orthodox and all other Christians agreed with Rome on contraception.

Alice to claim that a Church should not be involved in the question of Abortion because it does not want to get involved in politics is absurd.
It is a moral issue and the Church must take a stand, remembering the words of her savior; "either you are for me or against me" you cannot sit on the fence.
Stephanos I

Glad to know that the reference to "Serge" was not intended for me. The lesson here is that simple first names are apt to belong to more than one person, which makes it helpful to indicate somehow to whom one is referring.

I remain thankful for the absence of the avalanche of brickbats!

Fr. Serge (the Irish priest, in case anyone is still wondering)

Dear Father Stephanos,

I was just making an assumption and a guess. I am not 'privy' to anything official.

The fact that the Greek Orthodox jurisdiction it is not being 'activist' in the American political arena does not mean that it does not stand against abortion with other Christians, and that it is not fighting it from within.

I do agree that it could make its stand a bit more vocal to the American landscape for the sake of solidarity, however...and that it would be the Christian thing to do.

Respectfully,
Alice

We have an obligation to take our faith and transform society through it. It would be hard to read the Pauline Epistles and not get that impression in my opinion. To vacate the public/political arena of our world leaves it to be shaped and dominated by alternate systems of belief or ethics; and it is equally possible that once the public arena changes, the inner sphere of the church will be affected as well.

Faith in a corner, and a purely private affair, is exactly where the secular world seeks to create. When we accept that idea, we've capitulated to a large degree.

Joe,

You said you were against abortion except in cases where it threatens the life of the mother. If I may ask, I thought that the Orthodox Churches, like the Catholic Church, believed abortion to be immoral in all cases, including those that threaten the life of the mother? Was I mistaken?

Alexis

The idea of Orthodoxy being monastic to the point of excluding Christian activism, and of Catholicism being Christian activist to the point of excluding monasticism, doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I have to admit. PRAYING and DOING go hand in hand for the vast majority of us, cloistered monastics excluded (to some degree).

Alexis

I think there is a distinction that has to be made in this discussion. Pregnancies that pose health threats (which are not all that rare) and pregnancies that will result in the death of the mother (which are rather unusual-at least in areas with modernized health care) are different matters. In Catholic teaching, it would be impermissible to terminate a pregnancy because the mother is encountering non-fatal health problems such as gestational diabetes or preeclampsia, both of which pose health threats, but can be treated without killing the unborn child. On the other hand, in a case such as a pregnant mother with uterine cancer, it is permissible to perform a hysterectomy in order to save the life of the mother. Of course, the unfortunate result is the death of the unborn child. However, Catholic moral theology views this not as an abortion, but as a hysterectomy-the death of the child is a tragic consequence of a procedure that is necessary to save the life of the mother. Another similar example is that of a tubal pregnancy.

Ryan

Dear Alice,

Hold the phone.

"Serge" is the pen name of "The Young Fogey". That is how he signs his posts at his own notable and quotable blog - anyone who doesn't read it, should. See here: A Conservative Blog For Peace (http://sergesblog.blogspot.com/) He is the one whose comments I was defending. He is the one who I quoted. Further, he is Orthodox, he is not a priest, and he is the one I was referrng to.

Irony of ironies, The Young Fogey(/"Serge") was insinuated to be an "uncharitable Catholic" ("The self righteousness with which some Catholics promote their rigid anti-contraception doctrine") and when I cleared that up, I am the one ending up with the black eye as it is now being assumed I was speaking of or about the venerable Apostle of Byzantium to Erie.



If I meant Father Serge Keleher (I did not) I would have referred to Father Serge as such. I think I have the track record to demonstrate that.

RE:


See above.

I will not use the term "cotton pickin'" again, but I really and truly disagree with your assessment of it. That is all I have to say about that.

-Simple

My grandfat