Newest Members
Canicus, SilverRose, reenyo, YAA_23, Edna_Obal
5026 Registered Users
Who's Online
7 registered (mardukm, John Michael, theophan, Fr. Deacon Lance, 3 invisible), 92 Guests and 42 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
"IconoFan 2" at St. Thekla Monastery Chapel
Father Archimandrite Januarius (Izzo), OFM
Can anyone identify what tradition this star might be from?
Lost Community in Lynch, KY
Patriarch Gregory at EWTN
Forum Stats
5026 Members
26 Forums
33127 Topics
401692 Posts

Max Online: 2716 @ 06/07/12 04:10 PM
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#301238 - 10/13/08 10:18 AM The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony
EdHash Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 747
Loc: USA
Dear byzcath.org forum members,

In my survey of various church rituals in the Byzantine Catholic communities, I have come across a proposed matrimony hymnal that inspired a question or two:

The church hymnal in question is the proposed book called “A Proposed Order for the Celebration of Betrothal and the Mystery of Crowning with the Divine Liturgy” that is found at the following link:
http://www.patronagechurch.com/HTML/prayers__liturgy.htm

The title page is given:

“The Holy Mystery (Sacrament) of Crowning (Marriage) & The Divine Liturgy (Mass)”

My question is in regards to the traditional Byzantine Catholic vows. But first, here are the vows given in the proposed matrimony booklet:

THE MARRIAGE VOWS
The bride and groom join their right hands upon the Book of Gospels. The priest covers their hands with his stole and right hand.
For the GROOM: [Repeat after me:]
I, N., take you, N., to be my wife, and I promise to love you, to
respect you, to be always faithful to you, and never to forsake you. So
help me God, one in the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints.
For the BRIDE: [Repeat after me:]
I, N., take you, N., to be my husband, and I promise to love you, to
respect you, to be always faithful to you, and never to forsake you. So
help me God, one in the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints.
The priest blesses them with the sign of the cross, saying:
What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.

Can someone tell me the history of the traditional vows in the Byzantine Catholic community? I think they are beautiful, especially that both the bride and the groom have the same vow to each other.

What is the purpose of the crowning if the bride and groom have already made their vows?

Ed



Top
#301241 - 10/13/08 11:44 AM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: EdHash]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Those wretched vows were adapted from Latin at a time when Polish laws governing marriage seem to require them. They are not required - I've never used them in my life.

The crowning is the central and crucial part of the wedding ceremony, as was at an earlier time the joint reception of Holy Communion (which is the origin of our present-day common cup).

Fr. Serge

Top
#301349 - 10/14/08 01:46 AM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
EdHash Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 747
Loc: USA
Dear Fr. Serge,

They might be "wretched" but they are in the Byzantine Catholic marriage rites. Why do you personally consider them wretched? I am interested in understanding.

Still, your opinion is not shared by those in charge of keeping them in your church rituals. The Byzantine Catholic churches in the United States are not under the authority of Polish bishops, so, I would think that that argument is a little week, if not invalid.

Doesn't having both the vows and crowning make things easier when there are Catholics from east and west? Both customs are used to make sure that the marriage took place and that there was no room for doubt about the validity of the service.

The vows are nice, but a little different from the books I received awhile back from my family. What happened to the bride committing herself to "matrimonial obedience"? The groom also professed his love for his wife as his own body. These new and improved vows are probably a gender neutral solution to what is perceived to be sexism in the church.
Ed

Top
#301358 - 10/14/08 02:44 AM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: EdHash]
Collin Nunis Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/07
Posts: 614
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
The wedding vows may seem out of place here, but Fr. Serge, allow me to differ on this: I'll just say that assuming most Westerners marry in a Byzantine church these days, the vows would actually ease the culture/liturgical shock that most relatives would go through when coming to a Byzantine church.

I wonder how it will be for me (assuming I changed rite by the time I married) if I married an Italian girl from a very rooted Roman family. Oh what fun.

Top
#301375 - 10/14/08 03:37 AM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: Collin Nunis]
Pani Rose Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 10685
Loc: Irondale,AL
Originally Posted By: Collin Nunis
The wedding vows may seem out of place here, but Fr. Serge, allow me to differ on this: I'll just say that assuming most Westerners marry in a Byzantine church these days, the vows would actually ease the culture/liturgical shock that most relatives would go through when coming to a Byzantine church.

I wonder how it will be for me (assuming I changed rite by the time I married) if I married an Italian girl from a very rooted Roman family. Oh what fun.


The reason you are attracted to them, is you don't understand the mystery taking place in the Crowning through the prayers that are said over the couple. The couple is bringing themsleves forward to Christ. All this vow that you are referring to is the legal part which the law requires - which is basically done in the exchanging on the rings/betrohal. Why be arrogant enough to think that you could improve the Crowning from what has been done for numerous centuries.

Also, there is a desire for control, instead of letting God do it his way. That is the only reason for bringing in some type of vows.

Fr. Serge is correct. I have NEVER seen them used. I pray they never are. I understand perfectly his statement.

Top
#301383 - 10/14/08 04:05 AM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: Pani Rose]
EdHash Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 747
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Pani Rose
Why be arrogant enough to think that you could improve the Crowning from what has been done for numerous centuries.


Dear Pani Rose,

Why do you call it arrogance? To answer your question about arrogance, I would direct you to those in charge of publishing your church hymn books. Maybe they can share with you their reasons? Might this be the same arrogance that was instrumental in introducing feminism and gender neutral language in the official Byzantine Catholic hymn book without explanation as to who demanded it? But what is so horrible about vows? all the other churches have them; some Catholic churches allow their brides and grooms to create their own personal ones.

Why don't the vows fulfill or validate the Crowning? Your church shepherds seem to think they are necessary.

I would like to know what the Byzantine Catholic shepherds have to teach about it. Are there any resources (in English) I can read? How have they addressed conflicting opinions about vows and crownings? Many thanks!

Ed

Top
#301441 - 10/14/08 01:25 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: EdHash]
John K Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1228
Loc: Rocky Hill, CT
Originally Posted By: EdHash
Originally Posted By: Pani Rose
Why be arrogant enough to think that you could improve the Crowning from what has been done for numerous centuries.


Dear Pani Rose,

Why do you call it arrogance? To answer your question about arrogance, I would direct you to those in charge of publishing your church hymn books. Maybe they can share with you their reasons? Might this be the same arrogance that was instrumental in introducing feminism and gender neutral language in the official Byzantine Catholic hymn book without explanation as to who demanded it? But what is so horrible about vows? all the other churches have them; some Catholic churches allow their brides and grooms to create their own personal ones.

Why don't the vows fulfill or validate the Crowning? Your church shepherds seem to think they are necessary.

I would like to know what the Byzantine Catholic shepherds have to teach about it. Are there any resources (in English) I can read? How have they addressed conflicting opinions about vows and crownings? Many thanks!

Ed


The previous two pastors of my former parish did not use vows at all during any crowning service, and I was there for all of them as I sang in the choir. The current pastor does use them however. I think it's matter of preference of the priest as there does not seem to be a revised crowning service promulgated by the bishops yet. One would hope that any such revised service would not include the vows to restore the right practice.

Top
#301467 - 10/14/08 06:10 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: John K]
Pani Rose Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 10685
Loc: Irondale,AL
I think they are a Latinization of the Crowning. I have never seen them used, I know they are there. The reason I used the word 'arrogance' is it seems to me that one thinks the words they could/would say are more important than those of the Scriptures and prayers prayed over the couple.

I was raised Southern Baptist. Sorry, there is just no comparison to a wedding in which someone does their on thing to the Sacramental Crowning. Also, there are how many divorces in the Protestant Churches and how many in the Eastern Churches? In the EC Churches I am aware of, a divorce is very rare. So, I would say why even desire to change something that is proven by God in his Word.

Sorry if I offended anyone earlier by the use of the word 'arrogance'. I just think it is a feel good thing to use your own vows. So I guess I just fall into the 'grump category'. biggrin

Pani Rose

Top
#301565 - 10/15/08 02:32 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: Pani Rose]
EdHash Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 747
Loc: USA
Dear Pani Rose,

No apologies necessary. I am only confused.

If the vows are not needed, I can't understand why they are always popping up in your Byzantine Catholic church books. The one I quote in my first post demonstrates that there are still those who do not believe that the Crowning Ceremony can stand on its own two feet.

The vows seem to come first, which implies they are deemed more important, so the crowning is only secondary as if an embarassment. If the Byzantine Catholic church wishes to continue including the vows, then I would be interested in learning more about their theology from your own bishops. The Orthodox publish so many theology books explaining their rites, but the Byzantines are mostly silent. I only have the ritual books they publish to go on, and if anything is said differently, I will still go with the published texts actually used in the communities.

I can understand that some clergy can have their own personal spirituality and detest the inclusion of the vows, but their opinions conflict with their church shepherds. We saw how feminism and gender neutral language can be introduced in officially published books, but these were not private publications; they are written expression of your shepherds' voices. They have spoken.

With that being said, I can see how many people, including clergy, can be confused. I am confused just trying to understand which direction your church intends to go. When the winds blow one way, they go in that direction; when the winds turn and blow the other way, they go that direction. Bending reeds. Sorry if my words are strong, but I cannot find satisfaction in my understanding where the Byzantine Catholics stand on anything, especially when their chief shepherds are always working against them.

Read the title of your proposed marriage book, “The Holy Mystery (Sacrament) of Crowning (Marriage) & The Divine Liturgy (Mass)” Is it a Holy Mystery or a Sacrament? Is it a Crowning or a Marriage? Is it the Divine Liturgy of the Mass? I never read a ritual book that couldn't even make up its own mind what it is about! All so confusing. The title is confused about whether it is a Crowning or a Marriage, but inside, it is a Vow Ceremony.

Back to the vows.

What exactly is the theology of the vows, if any, that is so contradictory or challenging to the crowning ceremony? What ritual makes the marriage?

Thank you for your patience,
love and peace,
Ed

Top
#301593 - 10/15/08 05:27 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: EdHash]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Ed Hash writes that:

Quote:
some clergy can have their own personal spirituality and detest the inclusion of the vows, but their opinions conflict with their church shepherds.


I beg your pardon, sir!

Not so very long ago, our Bishop was here to celebrate a wedding, and did so. His Grace also did not use the "vows". Nor did Patriarch Maximos V, whom I was privileged to assist in a wedding in the USA a number of years ago, nor did Archbishop Joseph (Raya), of most holy memory, whom I was privileged to assist in several weddings.

So I and surely some other clergy will take it kindly if we are not falsely accused of acting in conflict with our hierarchs, especially if the accuser has clearly not taken the trouble to learn the facts of the matter.

For the sake of Christ, forgive me.

Father Serge

Top
#301636 - 10/15/08 09:21 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
EdHash Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 747
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Serge Keleher
Not so very long ago, our Bishop was here to celebrate a wedding, and did so. His Grace also did not use the "vows". Nor did Patriarch Maximos V, whom I was privileged to assist in a wedding in the USA a number of years ago, nor did Archbishop Joseph (Raya), of most holy memory, whom I was privileged to assist in several weddings.

So I and surely some other clergy will take it kindly if we are not falsely accused of acting in conflict with our hierarchs, especially if the accuser has clearly not taken the trouble to learn the facts of the matter.


Dear Father Serge,
My thread and posts have been in regards to the Byzantine Catholic bishops in this country, namely the same ones who published the RDL. I provide a link to a website that is about the proposed marriage service. I hear (or read) one thing what a Byzantine Catholic is, but read a different thing that their shepherds publish for church use. If there is any conflict, it is here. Either the clergy are correct in their theology or their shepherds are. Either the vows are to be included or they are not. The "accuser" here is just trying to figure it all out. If I don't know the "facts" it is because I see contradictions between those who admire Eastern Christian theology and their church traditions and those who publish what is to be considered official. Maybe my confusion can be straightened out if you can only point me to what these Byzantine Catholic bishops REALLY say on the matter of vows? Since they, not me, has decided to keep this tradition in their rituals, maybe they have a legitimate reason? Of the four bishops who signed off on the RDL, name one who teaches what you and your bishops teach. My aunt says that her priest uses the vows all the time because it is mandated by his shepherd and is in the books.

Ed

Top
#301637 - 10/15/08 09:23 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Fr. Deacon Lance Online   content
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 4166
Loc: Washington, PA
Ed,

Quote:
If the vows are not needed, I can't understand why they are always popping up in your Byzantine Catholic church books. The one I quote in my first post demonstrates that there are still those who do not believe that the Crowning Ceremony can stand on its own two feet.


Like any other Latinization they are engrained. I would also add the last time the Metropolia printed Marriage booklets, as far as I am aware, was 1972, a time when most were still very comfortable with our Latinizations. The book you cite was created by the parish and has no official sanction from a hierarch that I can see.

Quote:
The vows seem to come first, which implies they are deemed more important, so the crowning is only secondary as if an embarassment.


No, you imply they are deemed more important. If you actually attend a Byzantine wedding it is quite easy to see that the Crowning is the high point of the service.

Quote:
Read the title of your proposed marriage book, “The Holy Mystery (Sacrament) of Crowning (Marriage) & The Divine Liturgy (Mass)” Is it a Holy Mystery or a Sacrament? Is it a Crowning or a Marriage? Is it the Divine Liturgy of the Mass?


This is done for explanatory purposes for the sake of non-Byzantine Christians in attendance, since our terminology is unfamiliar to them.

Quote:
What ritual makes the marriage?


The Crowning is considered to confer the Mystery, period. This is why a marriage conducted by a deacon will not be considered valid for an Eastern Catholic. Deacons cannot administer the Crowning, no Crowning means no Mystery confered which means no marriage. That is Canon Law. The Melkite Euchologion does not contain the vows at all. While I do not judge the vows wretched, they are not native to the Byzantine Mystery of Crowning they do not belong to it. It could also be possible that some state marriage laws require vows, I am not sure.

Fr. Deacon Lance
_________________________
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Top
#301638 - 10/15/08 09:25 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: EdHash]
EdHash Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 747
Loc: USA
Dear Father Serge,

I apologize if you consider my words in a negative light. I wish not to challenge you personally. If you care to respond, please quote or refer to the bishops whose names appear in the RDL publication. They, not any others, would be the ones publishing a new marriage ritual and may subscribe to a different type of Eastern theology that is more inclusive of other traditions.

You are an honorable priest!

Ed

Top
#301640 - 10/15/08 09:34 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
EdHash Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 747
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
The book you cite was created by the parish and has no official sanction from a hierarch that I can see.


This is quite public, which implies that they have some sort of appreoval.

Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
No, you imply they are deemed more important. If you actually attend a Byzantine wedding it is quite easy to see that the Crowning is the high point of the service.


Actually, the ritual books have the vows first. Having the Crowning later makes for an interesting problem: if the Crowning is what makes the marriage, then the vows have no legal or binding affect. So, why incorporate them into the ceremony?

Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
This is done for explanatory purposes for the sake of non-Byzantine Christians in attendance, since our terminology is unfamiliar to them.


Do the Orthodox do this too for those attending who are not Orthodox?

Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
The Crowning is considered to confer the Mystery, period.

If that is so, then someone should notify your bishops.

Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
While I do not judge the vows wretched, they are not native to the Byzantine Mystery of Crowning they do not belong to it.


Not native? What does Rome have to say about it? Are the vows in the official Roman texts of the Byzantine Catholic wedding ceremony? Everyone refers to Roman publications that always seem to be in conflict with Byzantine Catholic books, so I thought it would be interesting to know that.

Ed

Top
#301641 - 10/15/08 10:01 PM Re: The Byzantine Catholic wedding vow ceremony [Re: EdHash]
Byzantine TX Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 537
Loc: PA
At a certain point this argument makes us look silly. Do we follow the true faith lived out in the authentic orthopraxis or do we attempt some "third way" wherein we are made into a potpourri of Liturgical practices from all over. The pendulum seems to be swinging in the former direction.

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright - 1996-2014. All rights reserved.