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#301619 - 10/15/08 07:26 PM specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism
aikiMac Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Redondo Beach
From here link

The claim is that many specific paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church are "heretical" or "heterodox" whatever, according to an Eastern Orthodox view. I myself cannot think of any such paragraphs, so I ask, what are they? Give me at least three specific paragraphs by number. By giving the paragraph number we can all look them up together and "be on the same page," literally.

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#302864 - 10/28/08 06:27 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: aikiMac]
aikiMac Offline
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Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Redondo Beach
Two weeks and 113 views but no response --> just what I suspected. I suspected that there are no differences in the Catechism, that the differences are outside the Catechism. That means that the differences are not dogmas.

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#302868 - 10/28/08 06:48 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: aikiMac]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2406
Loc: Georgia U.S.
Originally Posted By: aikiMac
Two weeks and 113 views but no response --> just what I suspected. I suspected that there are no differences in the Catechism, that the differences are outside the Catechism. That means that the differences are not dogmas.


The reason there is silence is that it is probably the case that no Orthodox on this forum want to get into the subject which causes a good bit of tension among those in the forum. I, for one, do not want to get into a discussion where the term "heresy" is going to be thrown out at some point and people are going to be offended. There are numerous teachings of the Roman Catholic Church with which we Orthodox disagree. Some of this has already been discussed in other threads. But if some other Orthodox on the forum wants to respond to your question, I'm sure he or she will. God bless.

Joe

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#302873 - 10/28/08 07:31 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
Byzantine TX Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 537
Loc: PA
I, for one, value aikiMac's question. I'd rather have a real discussion than oblique references to unwelcome "popery." Having just attended 3 Orthodox talks given by local parishes, every one had an offhand anti-Roman Catholic comment during the Q&A, but none could substantiate their position when I asked them what they meant.

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#302881 - 10/28/08 08:38 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Byzantine TX]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
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Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2406
Loc: Georgia U.S.
I am by no means interested in shutting down any discussion. I have just felt, personally, reluctant to get involved. Let me spend the rest of the afternoon praying about this and perhaps I'll aikiMac's question.

Joe

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#302884 - 10/28/08 08:59 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
AMM Offline
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3393
Loc: Etc
What's the point of arguing about it?

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#302898 - 10/28/08 10:44 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: AMM]
Epiphanius Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 1126
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: AMM
What's the point of arguing about it?

To get a better understanding of what the real issues are, and how real people feel about them.

We don't have to come to an agreement on everything, but I don't think we should tiptoe around these issues, either. The questions are there, and they need to be discussed openly and with charity. That's one of the reasons for this forum's existence.

I would caution the Catholic members of this forum to remember that the same rule of charity applies to them.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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#302904 - 10/28/08 11:26 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: aikiMac]
theophan Offline
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Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5861
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Quote:
The claim is that many specific paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church are "heretical" or "heterodox" whatever, according to an Eastern Orthodox view.


I am wondering if the objections that Orthodox members might have stem from the different way in which we approach many of the same areas of our experience of the Faith and thereby our entry into relationship with Christ.

My own studies have lead me to the hypothesis that the Western approach is to define everything that can be defined. It assumes that there is an answer to every question. It is very uneasy with ambiguity and mystery. The Eastern approach seems to be okay with some areas being left to mystery and ambiguity--not to say that areas of the Faith are not important. In fact, I suspect that some of the areas where there are serious disagreements among us who are down here where the rubber meets the road stem from the application of the Faith, i.e., orthopraxy. Other areas stem from the objection to the two definitions by the Popes that Catholics consider infallible.

Beyond all this, it's well to remember that the CCC was written for bishops and other experts for their reference in developing other catechisms after almost 25 years of confusion about what the Church actually teaches and why. So many Catholics, both learned and no-so-learned got the idea that everything prior to 1965 had been tossed out and, in the absence of official teaching to the contrary, everyone had the right to make up his own mind according to his conscience--authority be "derned." (And sometimes to make up one's own mind according to his conscience even in the face of authoritative pronouncements.)

I call this period of confusion the time when "Kitchen Sink Catholicism" took hold in many quarters. (From the song "Love Potion Number 9: "mixed it up right there in the sink." You know--a little knowledge taken home, mixed with big gaps in one's formation in the Faith, mixed with lots of contrary information obtained in the secular culture, and voila--Kitchen Sink Catholicism.)

In Christ,

BOB

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#302911 - 10/28/08 11:51 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: theophan]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2406
Loc: Georgia U.S.
Well, I want to mention one reason why I'm reluctant to go down this path. The more I study, and the longer that I am Orthodox, the more I see how there are substantial differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. And Bob, while I appreciate what you are saying, I have to say that I have moved to the position that not only does the Roman Church over-define things, but that Church also defines things wrongly. Any discussion that I have on this matter is going to end with my saying that certain doctrines taught by Rome are heretical and then a flame war will erupt or I will be accused of being uncharitable and in the end, nothing will be accomplished.

Joe

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#302922 - 10/29/08 02:32 AM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Epiphanius]
AMM Offline
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3393
Loc: Etc
Originally Posted By: Epiphanius
Originally Posted By: AMM
What's the point of arguing about it?
To get a better understanding of what the real issues are, and how real people feel about them.


Okay, I've never read it so I don't know what I would disagree with, and we don't have a catechism. I also don't know what standing the catechism has whether what it contains are dogmas that must be adhered to our just presentations of what are commonly accepted positions.

Our catechism in my mind is the creed, and I believe as little as possible should be defined as doctrine.

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#302934 - 10/29/08 05:03 AM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: AMM]
MarkosC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 517
Loc: Melkite Greek Catholic Church
aikiMac,

The reason why it doesn't exist is because the Orthodox "objections" have existed for centuries before the publication of the CCC and no one as yet has seen it useful to go through the CCC and criticise it. I think there would be many areas of agreement, but in many sections there probably would subtle and deep distinctions - sometimes even things as deep as ontological differences.

Reading "The Orthodox Way" slowly and digesting it should give you some idea of these differences. There are other books out there which discuss differences between Rome and Orthodoxy head on, but they're either pseudo-intellectual and problematic or are difficult books which are not beginners won't be able to understand.

Markos

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#302967 - 10/29/08 08:26 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: MarkosC]
aikiMac Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Redondo Beach
Originally Posted By: JSMelkite
The more I study, and the longer that I am Orthodox, the more I see how there are substantial differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

As I study further I see fewer differences of substance. The differences become stylistic only, like "I prefer this analogy, and you prefer that analogy."


Originally Posted By: MarkosC
The reason why it doesn't exist is because the Orthodox "objections" have existed for centuries before the publication of the CCC and no one as yet has seen it useful to go through the CCC and criticise it.

Are we criticizing when we don't even know what the other guy believes? I don't like that game.


Quote:
Reading "The Orthodox Way" slowly and digesting it should give you some idea of these differences. There are other books out there which discuss differences between Rome and Orthodoxy head on, but they're either pseudo-intellectual and problematic or are difficult books which are not beginners won't be able to understand.

"The Orthodox Way" is a good book for what the author set out to do. I read it. As for the other books -- that's why I'm asking for specific paragraphs in the CCC. I have no interest in dialoging with anyone who just waves his arms and shouts "He's wrong! He's wrong!" without ever stating specifically where the error is.

See, here's the thing: Romans do and say things that are beyond the Catechism, and that which is beyond the Catechism is not binding.

One example is the Assumption of Mary (or the Dormition of Mary, for us Easterners). The Catechism does not say whether or not Mary died before going to heaven. The Catechism only says that she ascended bodily into heaven. Your typical Roman Catholic will tell you that she did not die first, that like Enoch and Elijah she was spared death. But that teaching is not in the Catechism. Thus -- here's the punchline -- the Catechism is compatible with the Eastern tradition (the Melkites, anyway) that she did die and then was resurrected and then ascended into heaven.

Purgatory is a 2nd example. The details commonly taught by Romans are not in the Catechism. That which is in the Catechism is compatible with the Eastern tradition.

Etc etc etc -- we could find further examples where the actual text of the Catholic Catechism does not set forth common Roman distictives, but rather states something that East and West both believe. And therein is the basis for my asking where, specifically, does the actual text of the Catechism diverge from Eastern Orthodox dogma. And I said dogma.

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#303041 - 10/30/08 05:57 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Epiphanius]
Paul B Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 1732
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Epiphanius
Originally Posted By: AMM
What's the point of arguing about it?

To get a better understanding of what the real issues are, and how real people feel about them.

We don't have to come to an agreement on everything, but I don't think we should tiptoe around these issues, either. The questions are there, and they need to be discussed openly and with charity. That's one of the reasons for this forum's existence.

I would caution the Catholic members of this forum to remember that the same rule of charity applies to them.


Peace,
Deacon Richard



I think this can be a constructive and enlightening discussion if we all take a brotherly approach. I would be surprised if many Orthoddox have seen a good Catholic catechism, so here is the link for you to peruse http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

One thing that I hope to learn from this is "how much have we as Eastern Catholics been Latinized?" It is probably somewhere between "more than I think, but less than our Orthodox brothers think." Perhaps the gap is not as large as perceived. Another thought is that we have all become somewhat "Americanized."

Building upon aikiMac's recommendation that we "all be on the same page" it would be helpful that a somewhat official Orthodox reference (online preferably) be cited where pointed out differences between Catholic and Orthodox dogma, theology, doctrine, mindset,etc.

Fr Deacon Paul

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#303051 - 10/30/08 08:19 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Paul B]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3393
Loc: Etc
Can you provide some clues as to what may be objectionable? That's a lot to read.

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#303052 - 10/30/08 08:38 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: AMM]
aikiMac Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Redondo Beach
Well, there's another thread regarding the sacrament of marriage. Paragraphs 1623 and 1626 concern that issue. Is the Catechism wrong? I think not, but if it is wrong in what sense is it wrong?

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