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#307389 - 12/17/08 02:44 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose]
ajk Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1659
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: Hieromonk Ambrose
Originally Posted By: ajk
Originally Posted By: Hieromonk Ambrose


Leavened bread all round? grin


Cute, but a topic best avoided; no need to rehash yet again what kind of bread was used at the Last Supper.

Have we already done leavened bread? confused

But you see the point? That if your propositioon is axiomatic and we must defer to the practices of greater antiquity, then the Church of Rome has to retire those wafers and start baking leavened bread again.


No, I do not see the point at all, not one bit. As I said/implied, start another thread on this if you want. If I see the point in posts there, then I may choose to participate also.


(I don't know what the proposition is that you are referring to.)

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#307391 - 12/17/08 02:52 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose]
ajk Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1659
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: Hieromonk Ambrose
Originally Posted By: ajk
Originally Posted By: Hieromonk Ambrose
Think economia!

Every Orthodox Church in America may, if it chooses, baptize. They can, they do.
Yes, "if it chooses." The Catholic Church is constrained here, having no choice: It must baptize the unbaptized, and not baptize the baptized.

Same with the Easterners. It is a great sin to baptize someone already baptized. It is actually a defrocking offence for a priest.


A clarification: There are "Easterners" in the Catholic Church also.

So a "baptized-Catholic" who is then baptized in the Orthodox church, was not in fact really baptized (as a Catholic), and therefore, was not a Christian, one who had put on Christ? That's a question.


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#307396 - 12/17/08 03:13 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: ajk]
Hieromonk Ambrose Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 1520
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: ajk
So a "baptized-Catholic" who is then baptized in the Orthodox church, was not in fact really baptized (as a Catholic), and therefore, was not a Christian? That's a question.

You'd have to ask my bishop. I would say that those who claim a baptism outside the Church (which is, as I have been taught, the big-O one) would be in the category of "Other sheep do I have which are not of this fold. Them also must I bring and there will be one fold and one shepherd."

I am intrigued.... Catholics have no trouble at all denying the existence of the Sacraments in, say the Anglican and Lutheran Churches. They deny that the Archbishop of Canterbury is anything more than a layman. They deny that anything happens at his eucharistic service. He cannot forgive sins. He cannot confirm. He cannot ordain. So why is it that you allow the baptism of these ecclesial communities when you deny them the other Sacraments? Why is baptism the only Sacrament which exists outside the Church?

[OK, I think that you may now allow their Marriage as sacramental but did this leniency commence only recently with Vatican II?]

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#307400 - 12/17/08 03:25 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose]
Michael_Thoma Offline
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Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 2410
Loc: Chicago
Hieromonk Father Ambrose, bless,

I think the only reason is historical - the Church has always accepted the Baptism of Arian/non-orthodox bishops and clergy, as well those performed by, for example, pagan and/or non-Christian slaves/servants of Christans.

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#307456 - 12/17/08 09:27 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose]
ajk Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1659
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: Hieromonk Ambrose
Why is baptism the only Sacrament which exists outside the Church?
Since sacraments are encounters with Christ they do not exist outside the church. The very terminology seems strange to me. The Catholic practice regarding baptism results from Holy Tradition.

As a very crude analogy I'd say baptizing is something like opening a special door for entering the Church (in the broadest sense) and putting on Christ. A person can't open the door for himself (can't baptize oneself) and properly it is done by a minister of the Church according to custom. Because of the importance of entering, however, because of ignorance or inability or other mitigating circumstances, anyone can as necessary open the door for the person seeking/needing to be baptized. It must be the right door and opened the right way, the Church supplying what is possible and lacking, if required.


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#307465 - 12/17/08 10:05 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: ajk]
Father Anthony Offline

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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 3404
Loc: New York
Valid complaints are starting to come in on this and other threads. In reviewing this thread, posts have steered off-topic from the original post. There are several different themes and topics going on here that could have been developed in separate threads. This thread is now closed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
_________________________
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai

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