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#303053 - 10/30/08 08:41 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: AMM]
Amadeus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 4249
Loc: Chicago
Dear Andrew:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992 pursuant to Vatican II, is, in book form, around 500 pages!

It is, therefore, rather unfair to expect non-Catholics (even Catholics like myself) to have read the Catechism in its entirety!

In 2005, Pope Benedict XVI promulgated a Compendium of the Catechism, i.e., a shorter version thereof, considered as a synthesis of the voluminous CCC.

Picking a subject from the table of contents might assist those engaged in these discussions to focus on an area of interest one at a time.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#MOTU%20PROPRIO

Amado


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#303054 - 10/30/08 08:50 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Amadeus]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3393
Loc: Etc
1623 and 1626 sound okay, I don't know enough about the subject to say. I was married in a civil ceremony and only had the the marriage blessed by the church many years later. I always considered myself married. I do think people can get divorced and married again by the church. I know several people who have done this. Maybe those are differences.

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#303087 - 10/31/08 04:52 AM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: AMM]
Paul B Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 1727
Loc: PA

Another topic may be indulgences, Chapter 2, Article 4 Sacrament(Mystery of Penance and Reconciliation), section X.

I agree that the Catechism is a huge document and this thread may be open for quite some time. But in the long run I hope that it will bring us to a closer and more knowledgeable relationship.

Understand, that the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches modifies portions of the Catechism, as does Particular Church Law.

The on-line BC Particular Church Law has been posted previously; unfortunately the CCEC is not online in English. At least I can't find it.

Fr. Deacon Paul

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#303088 - 10/31/08 04:56 AM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: aikiMac]
MarkosC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 517
Loc: Melkite Greek Catholic Church
aikiMac,

I'll discuss this more later. I don't have the time now. Two quick things:

1. again, the CCC is an expression of Catholicism which is VERY recent - 1980s. Most of the problems between Catholics and Orthodox date to well before the true rupture - 1204. To my knowledge, no Orthodox has sat down since the CCC's publications to put forward a paragraph by paragraph refutation - and I frankly don't see why such a thing would be necessary.

That said, one book I thought of that might be useful to you is "The Byzantine Legacy in the Orthodox Church" by Fr. John Meyendorff. It's one of a collection-of-academic-articles-books, and nowhere does it discuss problems in detail, but it essentially touches on the main issues in several areas. I also believe Archimandrite Vasilios Gondikakis' "Hymn of Entry" is required reading for the really serious Greek Catholic - but it is a VERY difficult book, and one needs a sound grounding in patristic or Byzantine theology or else I personally believe it will just go over one's head.

2. To my mind, the #1 "problem" is the Roman formulation of Primacy, be it in the way Innocent III expressed it or in the way Benedict XVI expresses it (ref: "Called to Communion"). The basic idea is that such a conception of primary is an artificial abrogation of a function that belongs to the Church as a whole - and leads to the idea that everything flows from Rome and which covers Rome's own "errors". As St. Gregory Palamas put it (quoting again Meyendorff's study):

Quote:

Not bishops only, but whole local churches may stray from the path of truth. Palamas recalls that in the course of history all churches have so strayed, but only the Latin Church has not yet returned to Orthodoxy "although it is the greatest and the first, and includes the most exalted of all the patriachal thrones". The Church, pillar and foundation of truth, "nonetheless stands firm and unshaken, resting solidly on those who maintain the truth; and as a fact, those who beling to the Church of Christ dwell in tgeh truth, and those who have once for all abandoned truth, have also left the Church". THe miracle of ecclesiastical infallibility is thus realized in the whole ecclesiastical body....

Ref: A Study of St. Gregory Palamas, p. 180. Quotes from St. Gregory include Apoditic Treatise and Against Akindynos


Edited by MarkosC (10/31/08 05:01 AM)

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#303094 - 10/31/08 01:32 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: MarkosC]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3393
Loc: Etc
Quote:
Another topic may be indulgences, Chapter 2, Article 4 Sacrament(Mystery of Penance and Reconciliation), section X.


Can't relate to any of that.

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#303098 - 10/31/08 02:44 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: MarkosC]
ajk Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1656
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: MarkosC
...As St. Gregory Palamas put it (quoting again Meyendorff's study):

Quote:

Not bishops only, but whole local churches may stray from the path of truth. Palamas recalls that in the course of history all churches have so strayed, but only the Latin Church has not yet returned to Orthodoxy "although it is the greatest and the first, and includes the most exalted of all the patriachal thrones". ...
Ref: A Study of St. Gregory Palamas, p. 180. Quotes from St. Gregory include Apoditic Treatise and Against Akindynos


What is the specific straying that Meyendorff has Palamas referring to and which, in that view, has "only the Latin Church" as "not yet returned to Orthodoxy"?

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#303101 - 10/31/08 03:28 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: AMM]
Mykhayl Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 532
Loc: Pgh, PA USA
Слава Ісусу Христу!

“…problems between Catholics and Orthodox date to well before the true rupture - 1204.” QUOTE MarkosC #303088

Don’t make a milestone out of the plunder of Constantinople without taking credit to its precursor in the 1203 rape of Kyiv. “People who live in glass houses should not throw stones”.

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#303184 - 11/01/08 05:02 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Mykhayl]
MarkosC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 517
Loc: Melkite Greek Catholic Church
I have to catch a plane and my contribution to this discussion is ended for the next month.

Two quick things:

1. ajk: this was in a short 1-2 page section in Meyendorff's book, discussing St. Gregory's discussion of ecclesiology. I don't believe the primary sources have been translated into English.

2. Mykhayl, I am unaware of what happened to Kyiv in 1203. Second, I am not Orthodox, I am merely putting forward what my understanding of the Orthodox position is.

And, at least according to (again) Meyendorff's history, 1204 is NOT really a milestone in the ecclesial sphere (vice political and popular imagination spheres) because of the taking of Constantinople, BUT because of Pope Innocent III's statement that he had the authority to replace the Roman Emperor and the Patriarch of Constantinople because of Papal Primacy, etc. This was the first direct experience by the Romans of the Gregorian reforms of the past few centuries, and this was really the key to the rift.

He discusses two anecdotes to support it: in the century before 1200 there were a few attempts to coordinate Papal and Roman policy, which had no undertones that there was any schism. In contrast, after 1204, not only was the appointment an issue, but also talk of reunion appeared. There was even, in the 1200s a proposal of recognizing the Pope's temporal power as a temporary solution to the Nicea-Epirus-Latin Kingdom problem before communion was restored. (i.e. the Pope would be commemorated at the point where the Emperor was commemorated, but not where the Orthodox Patriarchs were commemorated).

Gotta go,

Markos

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#303186 - 11/01/08 05:08 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: MarkosC]
MarkosC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 517
Loc: Melkite Greek Catholic Church
One last thing,Mykhayl. I am a history buff, I would like to be educated as to what happened in 1203. I'll catch it when I return.

Markos


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#303210 - 11/01/08 10:44 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: Amadeus]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5812
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Quote:
It is, therefore, rather unfair to expect non-Catholics (even Catholics like myself) to have read the Catechism in its entirety!


AMADO:

I have a read-it-in-a-year outline if you'd like it.

BOB

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#303218 - 11/01/08 11:40 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: ajk]
aikiMac Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Redondo Beach
Quote:
What is the specific straying that Meyendorff has Palamas referring to and which, in that view, has "only the Latin Church" as "not yet returned to Orthodoxy"?

Yes -- the question is what SPECIFICALLY is the Orthodox objecting to. Vague statements don't help anything!

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#303219 - 11/01/08 11:49 PM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: AMM]
aikiMac Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Redondo Beach
Originally Posted By: AMM
Another topic may be indulgences, Chapter 2, Article 4 Sacrament(Mystery of Penance and Reconciliation), section X.

Huh? That's not a valid citation! Look again at the table of contents and try paragraph numbers next time. I think maybe you mean paragraphs 1471-1473. What is the objection to those paragraphs?

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#303221 - 11/02/08 01:44 AM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: aikiMac]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3393
Loc: Etc
I don't think the citation was mine. I also didn't lodge an objection, I just said those weren't things I personally could relate to.

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#303264 - 11/03/08 01:22 AM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: AMM]
aikiMac Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Redondo Beach
Originally Posted By: AMM
I don't think the citation was mine. I also didn't lodge an objection, I just said those weren't things I personally could relate to.

But there are seven Chapter Two's in the table of contents, and I asked for specific points of error, not things that you merely can't relate to.

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#303267 - 11/03/08 01:31 AM Re: specific Orthodox disagreements with the Catholic Catechism [Re: aikiMac]
Father Anthony Offline

Administrator
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 3404
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: aikiMac
Originally Posted By: AMM
I don't think the citation was mine. I also didn't lodge an objection, I just said those weren't things I personally could relate to.

But there are seven Chapter Two's in the table of contents, and I asked for specific points of error, not things that you merely can't relate to.



aikiMac,

Before you go on any further making an accusation towards anyone, I carefully suggest that you read the post you are quoting. AMM was citing someone else's citation. I also strongly suggest you tone down the manner in which you phrase your posts because they are coming across as accusatory and belligerent. This topic has the potential for learning on both sides but not if you are going to be on the attack constantly.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
_________________________
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai

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