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#302396 - 10/23/08 05:15 PM Acceptance of the RDL
asianpilgrim Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1056
Loc: Philippines
Is there anyone here who knows what percentage of BCCA parishes now use the RDL?

Is it true that Passaic Eparchy discourages the use of the remaining Aitesis?

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#302430 - 10/23/08 10:20 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: asianpilgrim]
Monomakh Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 492
Loc: just south of nowhere
I haven't heard of any in Ohio who aren't at the very least using the revised text with the inclusive language. I think that all of Parma is using at least the new translation and most are using the new music as well.

A deceased relative had a Liturgy celebrated at a BCA parish so I attended an RDL recently.

Can't say that I couldn't wait to get back next week to the UGCC parish I now attend. Liturgy starts at 9:30am here, we were done by 10:15am! Other than the usual gripes with the RDL, the part that cracked me up the most was the 'May our lips be filled....' part. Now that the repeating verses are gone, the hymn is over much quicker and the priest was still at the side altar. So they sang the last verse again. Still no priest at the main altar, they sang the verse again. Still no priest at the main altar, one more time they sang. I thought to myself, they could have sang it the old way with the verses repeating for crying out loud!

Too bad that's not the worst part of the RDL!

Monomakh

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#302440 - 10/23/08 11:29 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: Monomakh]
Anthony Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 305
Loc: New York
Did that include a homily?

Originally Posted By: Monomakh
Liturgy starts at 9:30am here, we were done by 10:15am!

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#302441 - 10/23/08 11:35 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: Anthony]
Monomakh Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 492
Loc: just south of nowhere
Yes there was a homily. It was about 4-5 minutes in length.

The one other sad part was that there was one child under 18 in the place. Maybe 4-5 people between 18-50. The other ~40 people were 50+. Fast forward 30 years, what do you see?

Monomakh

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#302479 - 10/24/08 01:08 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: Monomakh]
Paul B Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 1167
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Monomakh

Other than the usual gripes with the RDL, the part that cracked me up the most was the 'May our lips be filled....' part. Now that the repeating verses are gone, the hymn is over much quicker and the priest was still at the side altar. So they sang the last verse again. Still no priest at the main altar, they sang the verse again. Still no priest at the main altar, one more time they sang. I thought to myself, they could have sang it the old way with the verses repeating for crying out loud!

Monomakh


I think the restoration of the diaconate is the reason for the shortened "May our mouths be filled." The priest doesn't perform the ablution of the chalice; the deacon does it after the Ambon prayer, in accordance with the Ruthenian Rescension. The Liturgy moves quickly at this point because the Eucharist is taken to the Proskomidia table and censed; then the priest goes back to the altar. As deacons become available in more parishes this will become much more natural.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.

S'Bohom
Fr Deacon Paul

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#302484 - 10/24/08 02:10 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: Paul B]
ajk Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: Paul B

I think the restoration of the diaconate is the reason for the shortened "May our mouths be filled." The priest doesn't perform the ablution of the chalice; the deacon does it after the Ambon prayer, in accordance with the Ruthenian Recension. The Liturgy moves quickly at this point because the Eucharist is taken to the Proskomidia table and censed; then the priest goes back to the altar. As deacons become available in more parishes this will become much more natural.


Although the RDL has in some significant instances altered (without warrant I would say) the Recension rubrics, this is not the case here as correctly noted in the quote. The sense is to keep things moving and so after the transfer is made to the proskomedia table the deacon goes out for the litany. It is noteworthy, however, that if there are two deacons, the first goes out for the litany and the second consumes the gifts at this time, at the singing of "May our mouth/lips be filled..." The priority is 1.) keep the liturgy moving, 2.) consume the gifts as soon as possible.

For the RDL, the same is noted for the case when the celebrant or concelebrant consumes the gifts. That RDL specific rubric, liturgicon page 97, is after the ambon prayer, immediately following the rubric for the deacon consuming the gifts at this time also. (The RDL rubric also specifies that the deacon girds himself with the orarion, once again, at this time, which is not to be found in the Recension and, on the basis of the limited explanation that I've heard for this, stems from misapplying the rubric for the second deacon, when there are two, and drawing a rather wild inference and conclusion. Someone on the RDL committee had to go through some gyrations to fabricate this rubric from what is found in the Recension Služebnik and Ordo. Why???????????????????)

Bottom line: according to the RDL the priest sans deacon also consumes the gifts at some time after the ambon prayer. But is this generally being done?


Edited by ajk (10/24/08 02:23 PM)

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#302632 - 10/25/08 10:30 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: ajk]
John Damascene Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Ruthenia
Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
Is there anyone here who knows what percentage of BCCA parishes now use the RDL?
Is it true that Passaic Eparchy discourages the use of the remaining Aitesis?

It varies by eparchy. I don’t have an exact account but in the Pittsburgh Archeparchy probably about 30% have refused to take the Revised Divine Liturgy.

The little litanies between the antiphons are prohibited (removed from the book). The Litanies of the Faithful are forbidden and the prayer of the priest prayed quietly (though most priests omit the prayers altogether). The Litany before the Creed is reduced to the introduction “Let us pray to the Lord” and the prayer is taken aloud. The Litany before the Lord’s Prayer is optional. In the Passaic Eparchy the “Grant it, O Lord” petitions are forbidden.

Originally Posted By: ajk
Bottom line: according to the RDL the priest sans deacon also consumes the gifts at some time after the ambon prayer. But is this generally being done?

No. It is not generally being done except in some (but not all) parishes with deacons. The RDL has not caused more then a handful of priests to take the ablutions at the proper time. Nor have numerous priests started to use zeon. Etc. The RDL has been an utter disaster and has caused nothing but scandal, grief and suffering in the Church.

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#302650 - 10/26/08 01:18 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: John Damascene]
asianpilgrim Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1056
Loc: Philippines
Does anybody know what is being done in Fr. Thomas Loya's parish -- said to be a bastion of "pure" Byzantine practice?

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#302655 - 10/26/08 01:57 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: John Damascene]
asianpilgrim Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1056
Loc: Philippines
Quote:
The Litanies of the Faithful are forbidden and the prayer of the priest prayed quietly (though most priests omit the prayers altogether)


My soft copy of the RDL has a "Litany of the Faithful"

Quote:
The RDL has not caused more then a handful of priests to take the ablutions at the proper time. Nor have numerous priests started to use zeon. Etc


I would like to note that in the Ustav list (the messages in which can be read by and are open to the public), Fr. David Petras asserts that most priests now use zeon.

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav/message/22206

Quote:
The rite of zeon was in the Ruthenian 1964
translation, but in parentheses, indicating it was to be done or
omitted at the discretion of the bishop. Very few parishes did it.
However, the 2007 translation takes it out of parentheses and most
parishes are now doing it. I wish only to observe that these things
are happening in fact in Ruthenian Catholic parishes.




Edited by asianpilgrim (10/26/08 02:00 PM)

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#302656 - 10/26/08 03:45 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: asianpilgrim]
John Damascene Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Ruthenia
Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
Does anybody know what is being done in Fr. Thomas Loya's parish -- said to be a bastion of "pure" Byzantine practice?
The RDL, as mandated.

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#302657 - 10/26/08 03:55 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: asianpilgrim]
John Damascene Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Ruthenia
Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
My soft copy of the RDL has a "Litany of the Faithful"

The Litany of the Catechumens (7 petitions with the responsive prayer “Lord, have mercy” and the Prayer for the Catechumens) is reduced to 3 petitions and the prayer. The dismissal is gone.

The First Litany of the Faithful is missing the petition “Protect us, save us….”

The Second Litany of the Faithful is missing the petitions “Again and again, let us pray….” and “Protect us, save us….”

Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
Fr. David Petras asserts that most priests now use zeon.

Father David is a good man who is guilty of wishful reality. He also predicted that no one would notice the changes to the Divine Liturgy. Including the changes in music.

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#302678 - 10/27/08 12:24 AM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: John Damascene]
Paul B Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 1167
Loc: PA
I may be struck down for questioning Jonn Damascene, but I don't believe that his estimates are close to accurate. (30% of parishes not using the promulgated DL) or the "numerous priests (not) started to use zeon." From what I have seen in various parishes, the priests who follow the RDL also take that prescribed prayers aloud (some may read, others may chant).

Regarding the timing of the priest's ablutions his statement is probably correct.

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#302702 - 10/27/08 10:13 AM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: Paul B]
Administrator Offline

John
Member

Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 5891
Loc: Virginia
I will agree with Father Deacon Paul that the 30% number quoted by John Damascene is probably too high. I have no accurate count, but my conversations with clergy would probably put the number at about 10-15% in the Pittsburgh Archeparchy. ISTM that the number of parishes that would switch back to the 1964 if permitted is probably close to 95%.

As to the zeon, the RDL did not restore it. It was in the 1964 English Edition and the 1942 Normative Slavonic Edition. To claim the 2007 Revision is responsible for restoring it is to state something that is demonstrably false. One must always correctly delineate between a Litrugicon and a liturgical directive. The 1964 Liturgicon contained the rubric for zeon (page 43) but it was the liturgical directives of that era that told the priests not to use zeon. A new liturgical directive could have removed that restriction and restored its use. There was absolutely no need to revise the Divine Liturgy to restore zeon.

My own estimate is that some (maybe 25%) of clergy have restored zeon (one must look at what they do when the bishop or other notables are not present). Most priests appear to be taking all those prayers out loud in imitation of the Roman Catholics, but keep the rest of the rubrics pretty much the same as they always did. Things like the correct use of prosphora (i.e., no pre-cut) and zeon can be ignored just as easily in the Revised Liturgicon as they were with the Ruthenian Liturgcion.

When compared to the full celebration of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy according to the normative Ruthenian Liturgicon the 2007 Revised Divine Liturgy is a “Low Mass”. The details are just different than the “Low Masses” of the 70’s and 80’s.

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#302780 - 10/27/08 10:23 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: asianpilgrim]
JohnS. Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 1165
Loc: East
Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
Does anybody know what is being done in Fr. Thomas Loya's parish -- said to be a bastion of "pure" Byzantine practice?


---

Zeon has long been part of Divine Liturgy at Annunciation.

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#302797 - 10/28/08 01:48 AM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: Administrator]
asianpilgrim Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1056
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: Administrator
I will agree with Father Deacon Paul that the 30% number quoted by John Damascene is probably too high. I have no accurate count, but my conversations with clergy would probably put the number at about 10-15% in the Pittsburgh Archeparchy. ISTM that the number of parishes that would switch back to the 1964 if permitted is probably close to 95%.

As to the zeon, the RDL did not restore it. It was in the 1964 English Edition and the 1942 Normative Slavonic Edition. To claim the 2007 Revision is responsible for restoring it is to state something that is demonstrably false. One must always correctly delineate between a Litrugicon and a liturgical directive. The 1964 Liturgicon contained the rubric for zeon (page 43) but it was the liturgical directives of that era that told the priests not to use zeon. A new liturgical directive could have removed that restriction and restored its use. There was absolutely no need to revise the Divine Liturgy to restore zeon.

My own estimate is that some (maybe 25%) of clergy have restored zeon (one must look at what they do when the bishop or other notables are not present). Most priests appear to be taking all those prayers out loud in imitation of the Roman Catholics, but keep the rest of the rubrics pretty much the same as they always did. Things like the correct use of prosphora (i.e., no pre-cut) and zeon can be ignored just as easily in the Revised Liturgicon as they were with the Ruthenian Liturgcion.

When compared to the full celebration of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy according to the normative Ruthenian Liturgicon the 2007 Revised Divine Liturgy is a “Low Mass”. The details are just different than the “Low Masses” of the 70’s and 80’s.


Please explain to me: why are so many Byzantine Catholics unwilling to use zeon? Is it because of reservations that, in so diluting the Blood of Our Lord, it will nullify the change of the elements and "invalidate" the sacrifice ?

I'd also like to know how common the use of pre-cuts is versus proper Proskomedia. No exaggerations either way, please.

And what do you mean when you say that many priests "keep the rest of the rubrics pretty much the same as they always did?"

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