Site Links
ByzCath.org Home
Latest News
Liturgical Calendar
Lectionary
Newest Members
martin Baker, newyorkcatholic, zelda ondish, BothSides, MariyaNJ, Mariya Diawara, henrikhank, Fr. Ronald Comeau, J Parrish, Vladimir Teodor, mikev23, docnerves, JMJ1991, MichaelLofton, McClure010
4360 Registered Users
Who's Online
9 registered (Irish_Ruthenian, JDC, StuartK, sielos ilgesys, carson daniel "Metta Physical" lauffer, orthodoxsinner2, crule, cdhale, 1 invisible), 192 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Private Forums
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums: The Deacon's Door (for deacons and deacon candidates and their wives) and the Orthodox Christian Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America). Contact an administrator for access at forum@byzcath.org.
Latest Photos
Christ the Bridegroom visits Holy Resurrection
New photos of Fort Ross
Additiional clergy photos from Walk for Life West Coast
"Zions"
Walk for Life West Coast 2012
Forum Stats
4360 Members
26 Forums
29538 Topics
368850 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#302807 - 10/28/08 06:58 AM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: asianpilgrim]
JohnS. Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 1165
Loc: East
Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
Originally Posted By: Administrator
I will agree with Father Deacon Paul that the 30% number quoted by John Damascene is probably too high. I have no accurate count, but my conversations with clergy would probably put the number at about 10-15% in the Pittsburgh Archeparchy. ISTM that the number of parishes that would switch back to the 1964 if permitted is probably close to 95%.

As to the zeon, the RDL did not restore it. It was in the 1964 English Edition and the 1942 Normative Slavonic Edition. To claim the 2007 Revision is responsible for restoring it is to state something that is demonstrably false. One must always correctly delineate between a Litrugicon and a liturgical directive. The 1964 Liturgicon contained the rubric for zeon (page 43) but it was the liturgical directives of that era that told the priests not to use zeon. A new liturgical directive could have removed that restriction and restored its use. There was absolutely no need to revise the Divine Liturgy to restore zeon.

My own estimate is that some (maybe 25%) of clergy have restored zeon (one must look at what they do when the bishop or other notables are not present). Most priests appear to be taking all those prayers out loud in imitation of the Roman Catholics, but keep the rest of the rubrics pretty much the same as they always did. Things like the correct use of prosphora (i.e., no pre-cut) and zeon can be ignored just as easily in the Revised Liturgicon as they were with the Ruthenian Liturgcion.

When compared to the full celebration of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy according to the normative Ruthenian Liturgicon the 2007 Revised Divine Liturgy is a “Low Mass”. The details are just different than the “Low Masses” of the 70’s and 80’s.


Please explain to me: why are so many Byzantine Catholics unwilling to use zeon? Is it because of reservations that, in so diluting the Blood of Our Lord, it will nullify the change of the elements and "invalidate" the sacrifice ?

I'd also like to know how common the use of pre-cuts is versus proper Proskomedia. No exaggerations either way, please.

And what do you mean when you say that many priests "keep the rest of the rubrics pretty much the same as they always did?"


--

In a word Latinizations. Historically, our people have wanted to fit in.

A.P., imagine a divorce between a Greek and a Roman. Let's say that their daughter looks like the mother and speaks Greek. She even thinks in Greek. The daughter ends up with her Roman father, but just doesn't quite fit in with the Roman side of the family. That's similar to our story.

Sadly, I've seen the pre-cut program in both the BCC and the UGCC. Again initially Latinization. Now, I pray it is just lack of familiarity with what is authentic to our Church.

Top
#302827 - 10/28/08 10:51 AM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: JohnS.]
Job Offline
Cantor
Member

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 1334
Loc: Connecticut
Quote:
Please explain to me: why are so many Byzantine Catholics unwilling to use zeon?


Latinizations to fit in as well as the fact...that for generations Byzantine Catholic Clergy were forbidden to use it...so the tradition simply fell by the wayside...I remember asking a priest of the BCC back in the 1980's why he didn't utilize Zeon...I was told...ITS FORBIDDEN!!! Then given the rationalle that it really wasn't important since it began in Russia where the churches didn't have heat in the winter and needed to thaw out the chalice to distribute...

JOB

Top
#302839 - 10/28/08 12:01 PM Re: Acceptance of the RDL [Re: asianpilgrim]
ajk Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: asianpilgrim
Please explain to me: why are so many Byzantine Catholics unwilling to use zeon?
Actually, most Byzantine Catholics have had no say in the matter; most, I think, would be disinterested. BCC misadventures about zeon/teplota reside with the priests (bishops & presbyters) alone.

The Recension has the rite in brackets ( Služebnik, p 267 & 1965 Liturgicon, p 41 ), indicating a pastoral option proper for its time (ca. 1941 Slavonic / 1965 English) but also, thereby, showing the way, and providing the means for its inclusion.

Also, to put the rite into perspective:
Quote:
In describing the zeon rite, which appears in the liturgical manuscripts only in the eleventh century, T. argues that the domestic practice of adding hot water to wine was common in the ancient world among both pagans and Jews. Evidence shows that the Byzantines added hot water to the chalice at least from the sixth century, not immediately before communion, but prior to the beginning of the liturgy, when the deacons prepared the bread and wine. Eventually, out of a desire to have a warm chalice at communion time, they began to add the zeon just before the great entrance (when the gifts were brought in procession into the church), and finally (from the eleventh century), just prior to communion, as in the received practice. This new practice appeared in connection with symbolical and theological explanations emphasizing the eucharistic elements as the body and blood of the living, risen Christ. T. admits that such proposals are speculative. They fit the evidence, but large gaps remain, such as the total silence about the zeon in Byzantine sources from the sixth to the eleventh centuries.


BOOK REVIEW: The Precommunion Rites

Theological Studies
, Dec, 2001 by Paul Meyendorff

THE PRECOMMUNION RITES. Volume 5 of A HISTORY OF THE LITURGY OF ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM. By Robert F. Taft, S.J. Orientalia Christiana Analecta, vol. 261. Rome: Pontificio Istituto Orientale, 2000. Pp. 573. link


Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2



Moderator:  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2011. All rights reserved.