The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Lizzy VH, thomisticgamer, DesertPrayer, Makumazahn, EvaAve
5,706 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 members (theophan, 2 invisible), 104 guests, and 33 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,957
Posts413,413
Members5,706
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Originally Posted by Pseudo-Athanasius
I say that I am an evil Jesuit plot.



:-)

lanceg #302878 10/28/08 08:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173

[/quote]

:-)
Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Friends, a friend of mine sent this letter to the New Oxford Review.

...

The NOR has commendably championed a traditionalist understanding of ecumenism with regard to Protestants -- namely, that any true unity must consist of non-Catholics returning to the fullness of the Catholic faith. While Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches are qualitatively superior to Protestant communities, I beseech you to not be beguiled by their apostolicity, to hold them to the same demands as Protestants for unity, and to eschew all temptation toward irenicism. Otherwise, you may gain Catholics who are allies against some heresies but promoters of others.


To reduce the Orthodox Church to a question of apostolicity misses the point. The Eucharist is on their altars too!

lanceg #302890 10/28/08 10:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
E
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
Originally Posted by lanceg
Quote
... In light of Orientalium Ecclesiarum, the Second Vatican Council's "Decree on the Eastern Catholic Churches," many Byzantine Catholics now appear to believe that they have a mandate to purify their churches to such an extent that they have a right to reject any infallible Church teachings that are considered Roman in their theological genesis, for this would contaminate the Byzantine purity they are allegedly entitled to.

So, one will find no shortage of Byzantine Catholics who say that dogmas such as the filioque, indulgences, universal papal supremacy, and papal infallibility must be abolished or, at best, relegated to a theological opinion that Roman Catholics may hold as long as it has no binding authority on Byzantine Catholics. There are important distinctions to be observed here. In Etsi Pastoralis (1742), Pope Benedict XIV said that while Byzantine Catholics may omit the filioque in worship, they still have a dogmatic obligation to affirm it as part of their Catholic faith.

Lance,

These comments bring up an important point--there really is no consensus as to how we can authentically be "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

I would counter your friend's contention regarding Etsi Pastoralis by pointing out that its authority is certainly less than that of Orientalium Ecclesiarum, and should be understood in light of the latter, rather than visa-versa. However, it does point to a larger question, namely just how are we to regard the councils and other teachings of the Roman Church that clearly seem to be in conflict with our Byzantine tradition? We were clearly given a mandate with Orientalium Ecclesiarum (even though it can be argued that it was all laid out with the Union of Brest), but how one is to embrace this fully without setting aside what many believe to be dogmatic teaching is still an open issue.

In other words, I sympathize with the Byzantine priests who insist that there were only seven ecumenical councils, but I also sympahtize with the faithful who are scandalized by such talk. This is not a simple issue, and cannot be easily dismissed.

Let us not forget, however, the the supreme dogma of our faith is the person of Jesus Christ Himself. In Him we have the reconciliation of all our conflicts.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Epiphanius #302897 10/28/08 10:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Let us not forget, however, the the supreme dogma of our faith is the person of Jesus Christ Himself. In Him we have the reconciliation of all our conflicts.

Peace,
Deacon Richard


---


Amen Father Deacon. Amen.

JohnS. #302931 10/29/08 04:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 506
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 506
A few random late-night notes:

Lanceg: though I agree with the article that a Catholic cannot take such a blatantly anti-Latin position, nevertheless I think that the position put forward is more than a bit of a straw-man (I've been around the block a few times and I can't imagine even the most "Eastern" of mature pastors saying that) and I think this writer approaches the question from an integrist perspective. That perspective is "the Catholic faith is propositions A+B+C...+Z.... and whoever denies any of the above is a heretic" and that the Church will be saved if people start getting in line.

AFAIC, this is wrong and there is nothing we can do about this perspective. Some well meaning persons of this type will do great things with God on their side. Some will see things only from the perspective of an earthly ideology and it will disappear like so much wax and smoke. The Church is a gathering of people into a body which is called and sustained by God, it is man's relationship with God, and (if one were really reductionist) it's a (difficult!) change in one's way of life in the face of several ontological realities - but a change that brings us back to our original state and one that can only be made through God.

On a separate note, I don't like "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" for the same reasons many Orthodox dislike it. That said, it's a VERY useful concept in a group of Churches where many people won't do something because "that's Orthodox and we're Catholics". I prefer the formulation "A Church (i.e. an Eparchy) of the "Byzatine" tradition which does not believe Rome has left the Church". It's to my mind more accurate, and it focuses on the central problem dividing us.

Markos

Last edited by MarkosC; 10/29/08 04:50 AM.
MarkosC #302935 10/29/08 07:43 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I heard a Byzcath monk say that we are a reminder of the rupture in Christ's church. (me here)Theologically Orthodox and under Rome's mantle ( I know some will object to that.)Can't and don't want to let go of Rome or Orthodoxy.Feels like sitting on a fence in thong bikinis, and yet most of us wouldn't have it any other way.

indigo #302949 10/29/08 03:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
E
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
Originally Posted by indigo
... Feels like sitting on a fence in thong bikinis ...

LOL! laugh

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
Originally Posted by carson daniel lauffer
A recurring question which arises here and elsewhere is "What or who are we?" The "we" in this case is the Byzantine Catholic Church and I would suppose to one degree or another, all Eastern Catholic Churches.


It's a perennial message-board topic.

'RCs with a different liturgy' seems what the bishops and the ethnic rank and file (the bishops are ethnic too) want. As one person recently wrote on another, non-Byzantine board, his Ukrainian Catholic friends are fine with being called anything (Ukrainian Catholic, Greek Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, RC, Uniate) but Russian Orthodox.

'Orthodox in communion with Rome' (OicwR), a small minority serious about being Eastern/unlatinised, more of a presence online than off and usually not born/ethnic members, can mean either 'RCs not only with a different liturgy but other Orthodox practice and all of RC theology but expressed as much in Orthodox terms as possible' (which I think is what Rome wants Greek Catholics to be) or the dissent from RC teaching in favour of Orthodoxy that the NOR letter-writer logically, understandably criticises as he is doctrinally a convinced RC. The understandable response of the Orthodox to the latter OicwRs is like Rome's to Anglo-Papalist Anglo-Catholic Anglicans: 'Fine - why don't you just convert?'

The Greek Catholic churches are often a changing-station for them; they get fed up there and do convert.

OicwR as 'Eastern Orthodoxy without the toxic anti-Westernism particularly of online Orthodox' seems very appealing but the two sides' views on the scope of the Pope are irreconcilable which is why there are two churches! (Not the same as Western liberals objecting to the Pope for being Catholic.) Then there is the obvious difference between Orthodox practice and Novus Ordo protestantised practice. (Communion under both kinds, token deacons and tacked-on epicleses don't make it closer to Orthodoxy.) The Orthodox version of Western Catholicism, Western Rite Orthodoxy (the analogue of Greek Catholicism), doesn't look like that but like a 1950s Anglo-Catholic parish (much like what the reigning Pope wants for the Roman Rite, something like the Tridentine Mass).

The Orthodox look at the Greek Catholic reality - a shrunken church with its tradition compromised, or RCs with a different liturgy, in communion with functional liberal Protestants - conclude it's because of theological differences, say 'no thank you' and have the anti-Westernism of some reinforced.

Those Ruthenian numbers in America compared to the 1960s say a lot. A crying shame of course because it's a fine tradition, a big part of Pennsylvania's and Ohio's histories.

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217

At the risk of offending many, particularly converts, I'll just say that I've yet to meet one person at my UGCC parish, who either refers to themselve as Orthodox in Communion, or who is suffering from a spiritual identity crisis.

Lawrence #303032 10/30/08 05:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
E
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
Originally Posted by Lawrence
... I'll just say that I've yet to meet one person at my UGCC parish, who either refers to themselve as Orthodox in Communion, or who is suffering from a spiritual identity crisis.
Lawrence,

Such concepts are the exclusive domain of amateur theologians, such as can be found on forums like this, or even of real theologians, but certainly not of the average layperson.

The downside of this is that the average young adult who was raised EC in the USA today will follow one of three paths:
  • be absorbed into the RCC
  • marry a Protestant and become Protestant
  • give up the Faith altogether
In other words, anyone who chooses either to become Orthodox or to remain EC is definitely not average. frown

FWIW, most the UGC laypeople I know want to be Ukrainian Catholic because they want to be Ukrainian--nothing more complicated than that.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Epiphanius #303034 10/30/08 05:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,572
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,572
Quote
FWIW, most the UGC laypeople I know want to be Ukrainian Catholic because they want to be Ukrainian--nothing more complicated than that.


Not all smile - or am I the exception that proves the rule ?

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
No, you are far from the exception; I know of several - more, it seems, recently - that have not said anything about wanting to be Ukrainian as a reason for their joining the UGCC. I could point out many examples - one striking example is a Filipino priest working in our Eparchy with the St. Sophia mission in Honolulu.

While I have Austro-Hungarian Empire descent for me it had little to do with wanting to be Ukrainian; it had much more to do with what our Synod describes in our Catechetical Directory as the balance of particularity and communion found in the UGCC. I also found myself in a similar state as the Nestorian chronicle relates about the emmissaries of St. Volodymyr entering the Hagia Sophia - "we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth".

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 20
P
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by carson daniel lauffer
A recurring question which arises here and elsewhere is "What or who are we?" The "we" in this case is the Byzantine Catholic Church and I would suppose to one degree or another, all Eastern Catholic Churches.

This is a good question. The one thing that is truly ours was our Ruthenian Liturgy. We had our own liturgical recension. And our bishops have banned it. Those people at the seminary hate it and look down their noses at anyone who wants our way. They changed it to make it more like the Roman Catholic Mass. What does this say about how embarrassed the bishops are about who we are? They brought in a Roman Catholic who changed our music so much it sounds like gregorian chant. What does this say about how embarrassed the bishops are about who we are? We've gone to St. George Ukrainian Church a few times. They are not embarrassed about our Liturgy. If Father Valerian would start a Liturgy with our old translation and music he'd get almost everyone in Pittsburgh.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
Слава Ісусу Христу!

The recent survey study done by the PAOI pretty much shows, in my opinion the individual parish is the focus of most believers in the pews. Those who want to look at a bigger picture pretty much limit it to the North America experience on this Forum. The orthodox faith is catholic (worldwide), even in the ethnic Eastern Catholics perspective.

If we go beyond the Austro Hungarian Empire mindset or usurping Rus' for romantic prestige our patriarchic pedigree rivals Constantinople with Ss Andrew and Clement, nourished by the migration from the iconoclast persecution. As for “in communion” has anyone recently without rose colored glasses or the blind eye of prejudice put into perspective the Church St. Methodius and Pope Adrian II envisioned confirmed by Pope John VIII? Wonder if what they have in mind would have brought Slavic Catholics Vatican II a millennium earlier? Without meddling Germans, the intrigue of Romans aka Byzantines or Muscovite aversionary control would the Greco Catholics be functioning orthodox? Would the patriarchates of the new and the final Rome be balancing the scales between them with Kyiv as an equalizing fulcrum? Let’s speculate in a positive range.

Mykhayl #303457 11/04/08 09:07 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I find that yes, converts are more interested in this question because we generally join voluntarily and go in with our eyes wide open,so we notice the tensions of being Eastern Catholic more than a cradle born EC would. If our parishes die out converts don't want to go to the nearest RC church,because we CHOSE to be E Catholics not Roman,nor Protestant.

The cradles I know see being EC as part of their ethnic and/or national identity and are a bit perplexed by converts because,of course, you can't change nationality as if the former never existed or without the former nationality coloring how the new nationality is approached, and it isn't possible to become an ethnicity. (I think this is also why so little evangelization is done; if beging EC is your birthright then no one can become BC unless they marry an EC.)It seems to me that for cradles being EC just is; there's little speculation about their place in the Catholic Church or the relationship with the Orthodox.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5