Follow the link. I am at a loss for words.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7718587.stm

Converted Viking

That ruined my day

Sadly I'm not surprised

Everyone there seems to be determined to hang on to what they seem to feel are ' their rights ' - and if these happen to conflict in some way with ' someone else's rights ' - then that's just too bad .

Argh

I just saw it on BBC and thought to myself: "here we go again"...

Im not surprised either, but very disappointed. It's important we pray for all involved, and to do that in such a holy place...what a mess..

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=5&ContentID=107213

Another version of the sad event.

For it is love that I desire, not sacrifice, and knowledge of God rather than holocausts. Hosea 6:6 NAB

And where else is it that God says He does not take delight in sacrifices and takes no pleasure in the animals taken from the flock?

I wonder if it ever occurred to our brethren that God finds our liturgical celebrations to be utterly worthless when we don't take the teaching He tries to do in and through them to heart. Not to mention taking that teaching out into the big world outside our own communities and applying it to every man, woman, and child we meet--not to leave out those who follow Christ and who may belong to other ethnic or Church communities different from ours?

Lord, please melt the hearts of those who are stone cold. Give fleshly hearts to those with hearts of stone. Grant us all enough time to repent the many times we have acted in similar fashion before You call us to account.

Kyrie eleison. Hospodi pomilui. Lord have mercy on us.

In Christ,

BOB

PS: What must the world think? What does this do to undermine the work of the Holy Spirit and further the spread of the Gospel to the ends of the earth?

Sad to say, this has just about become an annual event.

They look like angels, but squabble like demons...

Lord have mercy!

Fr. Deacon Daniel

Ah, yes. I know a gentleman in London (yes, there are a few gentlemen in London!) who was closely and heavily involved in the renovations in the Church of the Resurrection a few years ago. He chooses his words with great care, but without actually saying so he managed to make it clear that the biggest headache was getting the various Christian judicatories with rights in that Church to agree on even the most picayune matters. ["Picayune" is a small town in Mississippi, in case you're wondering.]

Don't tell anybody but about 40 years ago three colleagues of mine (Greek-Catholic Priests) managed to serve Divine Liturgy at the actual Tomb. They did this by slipping in the necessary equipment, then having two of the priests (these priests were not exactly emaciated) kneel down throughout the Liturgy, "sub-singing" the service, while the third was kneeling at the time and was the main celebrant.

Me, I have a simpler approach - I simply served in the Greek-Catholic Church on the Via Dolorosa.

I've often wanted to organize a parish pilgrimage to the Holy Land, but it is just too dangerous and I don't care to accept the responsibility.

Fr. Serge

Originally, a low denomination Spanish coin.

From Wikipedia:

It is sad beyond belief and a horrible witness for the world by clergy of the Apostolic Churches. Each year, sometimes more than once, - the Latins, the Greeks, the Armenians, the Copts, the Ethiopians - they have all participated in one or more of these sacriligeous disputes, invariably ending in what most resembles street-corner thuggery.

That they can hold their heads up and proceed to conduct divine services after so dishonoring a Holy Place is incredibly hypocritical. That the respective hierarchs - of any of the Churches whose clergy have participated in these events - have yet to ever publicly denounce the unholy acts perpetrated by their clerics is equally disturbing to me.

Many years,

Neil

This exact thought occurred to me as well. The whole thing is absolutely shameful.

This happens every 6-8 months, a brawl breaks out.

I'm sure pop culture in the US would love to see a reality show about this!

Monomakh

Dear Friends,

Sad, but true.

However, I know atheists and agnostics who get very upset when religious people get like this - to them, it is like a "proof" of the validity of religion when people will fight for what they believe.

The history of the Armenians in Orthodox countries like Greece and Ukraine/Russia is not a happy one all around.

Over time, even the word "Armenian" became synonymous with "heretic" and worse.

To call someone an "Armenian" in those lands was and I believe still is quite offensive as a result.

We even read in the Kyivan Caves Patericon about how an Armenian Christian came into the cell of one of the Fathers - and when that monastic Elder found out that his visitor was an Armenian (and a member of the excommunicated Armenian Church), he said to him, "How dare you enter my cell so as to sully it with your presence!" The Father then took holy water and blessed his cell . . .

I would suggest that what we see here is not so much inter-religious strife as intercultural strife that has been going on between Armenians and the Eastern Orthodox of specific national groups for quite some time.

Alex

I do hope you are being sarcastic, this isn't funny. I also am wondering why the hierarchs of the offending churches aren't publicly lambasting those who are responsible for this outrage. What a sorry witness to our faith !

Viking

No comment!! :


Patriarch says Armenians to blame for Sunday’s violence

The head of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Jerusalem, Theophilos III, on Monday blamed Armenian monks for the widely publicized fist fight with Greek clergy in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher a day earlier. “The Armenians are constantly provoking us,” he told NET TV. “They claim additional rights and seek to equate their privileges with ours, which date back centuries.” Two monks, one from each side, were arrested when Israeli riot police moved in to break up the fight.

www.ekathimerini.com

Sadly shaking his head and staring into a corner of the room--

Where does the Gospel talk about "rights"?

What about this statement--"You shall love your neighbor as yourself." And when asked, "Who is my neighbor?," the Lord answered with the story of the Good (Godly) Samaritan--a foreigner, a person who was abhorent to the Jew, a person who would be expected to kick the fallen, beaten man and keep on going.

And what are we to make of monastic profession? What prophetic message do these men send?

As if having a "right" to have a member present in the Tomb meant that it conferred ownership somehow--perhaps by extension someone would even be so arrogant as to suggest that by having some sort of right to quasi-ownership that they even "owned" Christ Himself.

Wow!!!

My little mind-picture of Heaven--sinc enone of us have seen or know or conceived-- goes liek this:

It's a baseball diamond. Christ sits where the home-base umpire is. Each of us stands on the home plate and has his heart and his actions weighed. Some of us get a good beating out of it. The best people get the best sets, cold champagne, gourmet food, and the best views. I get some place high up in left field where the Sun is hot and we get a sombrero, a warm near-beer, and a stale cheese sandwich. But at least we get in. We all have perfect hearing and sight, though, so distance isn't a real problem. Then we get to watch the explanations of those who pull such stunts, those who abuse the young and the old, and those who steal from orphans and widows. What explanations those will be!!

BTW, I'm not laughing. I'm in fear and trembling.

BOB

Who won ?

I.F.

SATAN ?

The Christians certainly lost.

Fr. Serge

What is really frightening is the zeal with which they fight.
You can tell this isn't just a one-off misunderstanding, there is a lot of pent up anger in there which was just waiting to explode.

How do these people go about their daily services and devotions with this sort of tension in the air?

Dear Friends,

This also brings up the question of how the two families of Orthodox Churches can be so close to reunion and yet the tradition of hatred against one another is something that would need to be dealt with outside the context of the theological commissions.

That anger that Filipe mentions above is expressed not only in public brawls but also . . . liturgically, when anathemas are recited against the teachers and saints of the Oriental Orthodox, for example: "the headless Severus (of Antioch)."

It is easier, no doubt, to achieve theological agreement on the Person of Christ that it would be to go from "headless Severus" to "Saint Severus of Antioch." (Who, as I understand, helped write the hymn "O Only-Begotten Son and Word of God" that is used in the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom.)

Nor is this a problem that is only specific to the Eastern Orthodox-Oriental Orthodox Churches.

In Eastern Europe, there was the tradition of Eastern Catholics making "fun" of the sanctity of Orthodox saints (which Bl Basil Velichkovsky strenuously warns Eastern Catholics against in his writings). Ukrainian Catholics had the "privilege" of making fun of the canonical Orthodox ("the Pope didn't canonize them, what kind of saints are they?") and of the uncanonical ("Don't get me started on those samosvyaty!" ("self-ordained")

While shoving matches between Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox are rare in contemporary times, the anger between those two groups came out just the same when the issue of mixed Catholic-Orthodox marriages came up and "which side needs to convert." Sometimes even saying that a person was "Orthodox" was enough to arouse all sorts of suspicions (although what the nature of these were were never clear). On the other hand, to admit to our Orthodox people that one was a "Katolyk" could sometimes evoke a sour face in them . . .

There is also tension in the ranks of Eastern Catholics. When there was a Litia in our church and the saints were being rhymed off, when the priest came to St Josaphat, I heard people behind me mutter, "Are we still commemorating HIM?!"

In addition to our pleas for ecumenical understanding with the view to eventual unity, perhaps we should give equal weight to examining the reason why people seem to thrive on division and enmity.

Alex

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

Like the video footage of little Muslim children learning that Jews are pigs and vermin, this type of behavior is learned. It's taught by one generation to the next.

It'll take a change of heart across a vast swath of a community on both sides and teaching THAT to the next generation to overcome this.

BOB

Perhaps this is another reason to finally de-Hellenize the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulcher and give it to the long-suffering Arab Orthodox in Jerusalem.

There was at least a common issue that both sides mentioned: the Greeks that their "guardian" be present, the Armenians that the "monk" was not to be present during their service. Perhaps a protocol has not been adequately established.

Either way it does not justify what happened. When I saw the video for some reason what came to mind was the scene from Dr. Strangelove.

"The Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem has categorically denied the Greek monks have any right to be present at a service in the Aedicule of the Holy Sepulcher Church, representative of the Armenian community of Jerusalem Arthur Hakobian told PanARMENIAN.Net. According to Father Pakrad Berjekian, who is in charge of overseeing the Patriarchate's properties, the Greek Orthodox church says it has the right to place a monk in what is called the Angel's Chamber, in the Aedicule, on four occasions: the feast of the Holy Cross, the 1st Sunday of Great Lent, Palm Sunday and Holy Fire Saturday. "This claim is a novelty to us and to everybody and has no grounds," he told said. He added that the Armenians have presented the relevant evidence to the authorities and made its position clear. Berjekian also noted that the ladder lying over the main entrance of the Holy Sepulcher Church belongs to Armenians. Fighting erupted between Greek Orthodox and Armenian monks at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the traditional site of Christ’s crucifixion on Sunday, November 9. Two monks from each side were detained as dozens of worshippers traded kicks and punches at the shrine, said police. Trouble flared as Armenians prepared to mark the annual Feast of the Cross. The Greeks blamed the Armenians for not recognizing their rights inside the holy site, while the Armenians said the Greeks had violated one of their traditional ceremonies. An Armenian clergyman said the Greek clergy had tried to place one of their monks inside the Edicule, an ancient structure which is said to encase the tomb of Jesus. "What is happening here is a violation of status quo. The Greeks have tried so many times to put their monk inside the tomb but they don’t have the right to when the Armenians are celebrating the feast," he said." http://www.armtown.com/news/en/pan/20081112/27652/

There used to be more of these 'biffos' and involving many of the other churches in the Basilica under the deposed previous Greek Patriarch. Hopefully things will quieten down a bit in the lead up to Christmas. I wish the 'Satus Quo' was online for us all to read.

Franciscan: Brawl at Holy Sepulchre shows confusion over agreements

Tuesday 11 November 2008

JERUSALEM (CNS) - The brawl that erupted on November 9 between Armenian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox clergymen at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre never should have happened and is the result of people not knowing what is in the Status Quo agreements, said a Franciscan official.
The 19th-century agreements include many oral traditions or customary law, but often each Christian community has its own codes, and clashes and contradictions occur, said U.S. Franciscan Father Athanasius Macora, who monitors the Church of the Holy Sepulchre for the Franciscan Custody of the Holy Land.

"People don't know the Status Quo. Because there is no shared code ... there are problems," he said, noting that the Status Quo committee meets weekly to discuss areas of disagreement. "I hope we can all reconcile and get back to work."

The Status Quo agreements regulate the jurisdiction of and access to key Christian sites in Jerusalem for Catholic, Orthodox and other Christian communities. Among those sites is the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where tradition holds that Jesus was buried.

"There are huge areas of cooperation and good will, but what happened is very damaging for all of us," said Father Macora. The Franciscans "were not at all involved, but (the incident) is damaging for everybody," he emphasized.

The altercation broke out next to the traditional site of Jesus' tomb during an annual Armenian Orthodox procession commemorating the fourth-century discovery of the cross believed to have been used to crucify Jesus.

The feud was sparked by the Greek Orthodox demand to post a monk inside the ancient structure built over the site of Jesus' tomb. When the Armenian Orthodox refused to admit the Greek Orthodox monk, more Greek monks blocked their path, and the melee ensued.

Israeli police rushed in to separate the fighting monks, arresting one Armenian and one Greek.

No pilgrims present at the procession were injured, said Father Macora, and sporadic altercations should not affect visits to the church.

Although there have been such confrontations in the past -- on Palm Sunday Armenian and Greek priests and pilgrims also exchanged blows -- Father Macora, who is originally from Texas, said such altercations are "anomalies."

Disagreements about the Status Quo also have prevented the Israeli Ministry of Tourism from building an emergency exit and have prevented repairs from being carried out on the rooftop Ethiopian Orthodox monastery.

Father Macora said that as the negotiator for the Franciscans he tries to avoid such confrontations by careful study of the actual Status Quo agreements before making any claims.

The last serious confrontations involving the Franciscans and the Greek Orthodox occurred four years ago, he said, adding that in general the Franciscans are known to have good relations with both the Armenians and the Greeks.

from CNS

Of the 6 Churches that have some status with regard to this holy place, 5 have engaged in altercations in recent years - the Latins, Greeks, Armenians, Copts, and Ethiopians. As memory serves, the sixth Church is that of the Syriacs and they are the sole body to have stayed clear of such sacriligous behavior.

The witness to the world, especially to the non-Christian world, is deplorable and it is no better as witness to the Christian world - including our own Apostolic Churches. Almost as bad as the brouhahas are the failure of the hierarchs of the respective Churches to not speak out and take action against their clergy who engage in such; the general practice is merely to condemn the "other side".

Many years,

Neil