All five parishes of the Pittsburgh Archeparcy that I attend truncate the Trisagion since the implementation of the RDL.

Ung

Did they do this before the RDL? Is this at the direction of the priest or the cantor?

I never heard a shorten Trisagion before the RDL was implemented.

Ung

How much is it shortened? I've never heard of this before.

Sometimes it is sung once with repeating the refrain twice (now set aside all earthy cares), sometimes it is sung twice and repeating the the refrain. Again, it is done to shortened the liturgy.

Ung

But the words from the liturgy in () are from the Cherubikon not the Trisagion.

Your right, my bad. It is indeed The Cherubic Hymn that I was referring to, and not the Trisagion Hymn. Sorry for the confusion. It is a shortened Cherubic Hymn, instead of singing a Thrice Holy Hymn, it's becoming a once or twice holy hymn now.

Ung

The Thrice Holy Hymn the Cherubic Hymn is refering to is the Triumphal Hymn/Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of Hosts...

There is no rubric regarding how many times the Cherubic Hymn is sung. It obviously must be sung at once and may be sung for as long as it takes the deacon to cense, the priest to recite the prayer of the faithul and the prayer: "No one who is bound...", the priest and deacon to recite the Cherubic Hymn three time themselves, and process to the prothesis. What U-C may be noticing is that in the old Liturgy the priest said two prayers of the faithful, in the RDL he says one.

Also my parish has always recited the Creed and our Liturgy has always been an hour, these things have nothing to do with the RDL.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The point I was making that I never witnessed a parish not singing the Cherubic Hymn three times before the RDL was implemented. I have witnessed recitation of the Nicene Creed since the mid 1990's.

Ung

I realize this is in the Kliros not the Scripture forum, but as it has come up here and since a deeper understanding of our prayer goes to inspiring beautiful liturgy, I thought I would offer these two selections from Scripture. In Scripture they are the only two places where the thrice holy acclamation is found:

Qadōsh, qadōsh, qadōsh
Hagios, hagios, hagios
Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus
Svjat, svjat, svjat

And they are a basis for a profound meditation on liturgy.

The first, from the last book of our scripture, the Apocalypse, the Book of Revelation, is the archetype of our liturgy, the prototype being that which occurred on the night before He was handed over:

Revelation 4:4 Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads. 5 From the throne issue flashes of lightning, and voices and peals of thunder, and before the throne burn seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God; 6  and before the throne there is as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And round the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: 7 the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle.[cf. Ezek 1:10-11ff] 8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty [Kurios ho Theos ho Pantokratōr], who was and is and is to come!" 9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives for ever and ever [eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn], 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing, 11 "Worthy are you, Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things; because of your will they came to be and were created."

And this prefigured in the description of Isaiah (the ancient liturgical languages, Greek, Latin and Slavonic preserving the designation Sabaoth; the words of the seraph to Isaiah are repeated at the communion of the priest and deacon, link):


Isaiah 6:1 In the year King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord (MT: Adonai; LXX: Kurion) seated on a high and lofty throne, with the train of his garment filling the temple. 2 Seraphim were stationed above; each of them had six wings: with two they veiled their faces, with two they veiled their feet, and with two they hovered aloft. 3 "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD [MT:YHWH; LXX: Kurios] Sabaoth!" they cried one to the other. "All the earth is filled with his glory!" 4 At the sound of that cry, the frame of the door shook and the house was filled with smoke. 5 Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD [MT:YHWH; LXX: Kurios] Sabaoth!" 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 He touched my mouth with it and said "Behold, this has touched your lips, and will take away your iniquities, and will purge off your sins." 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord (MT: Adonai; LXX: Kuriou) saying, "Whom shall I send? Who will go for us?" "Here I am," I said; "send me!"

Ung,

In my parish the repeating of the Cherubic Hymn has been shortened because the deacon, rather than the priest, does the incensation; thus the practical reason for shortening the singing of the hymn.

The re-emergence of a concelebrating diaconate and the recited or chanted Anaphora prayers have removed the reason (to cover the silence)for extended singing. The RDL assumes there is a deacon; the absence of a deacon requires a departure from the norm.

I hope that this explanation is helpful. I recognize that some people will continue to disagree with the changes, but some changes are required to make up for the aberration of diaconal absence with which the Byzantine Catholic Church has tolerated for so long.

Fr Deacon Paul

Just for my curiosity, can you reference this new RDL rubric in any "Ruthenian Recension" Orthodox jurisdiction or is a case of the "Sui Juris Metropolitan Church of America" doing this combination of shorten Cherubic Hymn/diaconal incensation on their own?

Ung

Ung,

I can't find a rubric where the people sing the "Cherubic Hymn" three times in "Ordo Celebrationis", or in my old prayer books.

Even before the English Divine Liturgy I can't remember the entire Iže Cheruvimy" sung thrice, only parts of it.

Can you reference any Greek Catholic DL which mandates the people singing it three times? I don't doubt that some cantors DID sing it three times, but only to give the priest time for prayers, censing, then recitation of the Cherubic Hymn.

As Fr Deacon Lance stated the priest and deacon recite it three times, and that hasn't changed.

Your Rusyn brother,
Fr. Deacon Paul

I have hesitated to comment on this portion of the liturgy -- Prayers of the Faithful & Cherubikon -- because a full treatment of what is and is not happening now and what was usual pre-RDL practice would deserve a separate thread. Some random observations:

1. In my experience of the Divine Liturgy prior to the RDL, a ritual element that was already impoverished compared to the rubrics of the Recension as properly found in the 1965 liturgicon, was the rite at the Prayers of the Faithful and Cherubikon. This practice along with further alterations now present as introduced in the RDL (although also seen in part already in the 1998 Passaic liturgicon) has continued and worsened. If the pre-RDL description of common practice is "impoverished," for the mandated RDL it would be "butchered."

2. The "Ordo Celebrationis" is not the place to look for rubric details for the people; it gives detailed and expanded rubrics for the clergy.

3. The pacing of the liturgy is very different depending on whether a deacon is present and/or the diakonika at the Prayers of the Faithful are taken.

4. The RDL here has very noticeable departures from the Ordo/Služebnik Recension rubrics.

5. Regarding adherence to the Recension Ordo/Služebnik versus RDL, that priest and deacon say the Cherubikon thrice has not changed; how they say it (rubrics) have.

6. See for yourself (picking up at the Prayer of the Faithful): 1965 liturgicon , Ordo , Služebnik ; Chrysostom RDL, see pages 59ff .

I think the only way to “ensure beautiful liturgies” is to get rid of the RDL. It is a model of how to destroy the Ruthenian Church.

Our cantors are almost all volunteers. They offer a lot to the church. They give their time and their talent and their own money. Why do the bishops have so much contempt for them? No one asked them about this new liturgy. They brought in a Roman Catholic who was never a successful cantor to re-write our chant. What does that say about the contempt our bishops have for our cantors? Nicolette got to make suggestions but they were almost all ignored. Bishop John admits that the whole church is in free fall since the RDL. But he and the other bishops aren’t about to do anything about it. It’s a matter of pride. They’d rather see the church fall apart then admit the RDL was a horrible mistake.

Want to ensure beautiful liturgies?

Look at the RDL and you will know what not to do.

Look at the RDL and do the opposite.

We cannot let them to turn us into Revised, Politically Correct Christians. Their imitation of the Episcopalians is a quick trip to death.

Keep praying and keep fighting for the Ruthenian Liturgy! God is with us!