martin Baker, newyorkcatholic, zelda ondish, BothSides, MariyaNJ, Mariya Diawara, henrikhank, Fr. Ronald Comeau, J Parrish, Vladimir Teodor, mikev23, docnerves, JMJ1991, MichaelLofton, McClure010
4360 Registered Users |
|
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums:
The Deacon's Door (for deacons and deacon
candidates and their wives) and the Orthodox Christian
Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs
offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America). Contact an administrator for
access at forum@byzcath.org.
|
|
4360 Members
26 Forums
29538 Topics
368853 Posts
Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
|
|
|
#306192 - 12/05/08 03:21 PM
Other rubrical alterations in the 2007 liturgicon
|
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
|
From another thread: One_Year_and_One_Day_A_ReflectionI hold that there has been no change in the rubrics. They have been rewritten, but do not change practice, except in the incensations before the Gospel and the Great Entrance, which have been barely mentioned on this forum. ... In short, I would like to know what the Forum means when it uses the word rubric. There are some prominent changes that have already been noted, link1, & link2, but there are some others scattered here and there that should also be mentioned. What is the justification or the rationale for making these changes? For instance, the rubric (the direction in red type) before the Creed, Chrysostom RDL, page 68: Facing the faithful, the deacon intones:
DEACON: Let us love one another that with one
mind we may profess.
Why this one time (outside the altar) this new rubric to face the people? There is nothing to compare this to, no corresponding rubric exists in the Recension liturgicon or the Ordo(§132).
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#306232 - 12/06/08 03:52 AM
Re: Other rubrical alterations in the 2007 liturgicon
[Re: ajk]
|
Member
Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 421
Loc: Australia
|
This (new) rubric is not found in the Antiochian tradition (Orthodox or Melkite) nor the Greek tradition.
The deacon intones this line facing the Holy Place as is usual when not at the Holy Table.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#306244 - 12/06/08 09:27 AM
Re: Other rubrical alterations in the 2007 liturgicon
[Re: Administrator]
|
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
|
The deacon intones this line facing the Holy Place as is usual when not at the Holy Table.
2. “Facing the faithful, the deacon intones:” – Where else in the Divine Liturgy does the deacon face West in prayer?
Indeed, the dictum, voiced by a deacon "long in the tooth" when asked about how the deacon faces for intonations was: "Inside the altar, face out; outside the altar, face in." Catchy and correct, but now... Also, in the RDL, when there is no deacon, what does the priest do here, face in or out?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#306250 - 12/06/08 11:46 AM
Re: Other rubrical alterations in the 2007 liturgicon
[Re: ajk]
|
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
|
Here's another one. One time has become an explicit three times, and each saying the prayers together has changed to specify a priest only rubric. The Ordo and the 1965 liturgicon agree; the RDL=2007 liturgicon is the odd man out (or however that is said in RDL PCese). At the beginning of the Prokomedia | 2007 page 21 | 1965 page 8 | | They make three bows before the table of preparation, each time saying: | Then they make three bows before the table of preparation, each saying: | O God, be merciful to me, a sinner.(Three times)
The priest says:
PRIEST:You have redeemed us from the curse of the law with your precious blood; nailed to the cross and pierced with the lance, you have become a fountain of immortality for us; glory to you, our Savior. | O God, be merciful to me a sinner.
You have redeemed us from the curse of the law with Your precious Blood; nailed to the Cross, and pierced with the lance, You have gushed forth immortality unto men: glory be to You, our Savior. | | ORDO: | 108. Then they make three small bows before the Preparation Table and each says: O God, be merciful to me a sinner. You have redeemed us... | | 108. Deinde tres inclinationes parvas faciunt ante Proscomidiae mensam, dicitque unusquisque: Deus, propitius esto mihi peccatori. Redirnisti nos... |
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#311115 - 01/30/09 08:50 AM
Re: Other rubrical alterations in the 2007 liturgicon
[Re: ajk]
|
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
|
Here's another example - and there are more - of a modification of the rubrics that does not fit the characterization originally posted by Fr. David: "I hold that there has been no change in the rubrics. They have been rewritten, but do not change practice, except in the incensations before the Gospel and the Great Entrance, which have been barely mentioned on this forum. ... In short, I would like to know what the Forum means when it uses the word rubric." The Ordo and the 1965 liturgicon agree; the RDL=2007 liturgicon modifies the timing of the incensing by the deacon (see the green cells in the table). What's the motivation, the justification, for this kind of change? Is it within the scope of the words of the RDL liturgicon's Foreword ?: "The rubrics are founded on a careful historical study of the development of the Liturgy as revealed by manuscript evidence and modern liturgical scholarship. Authentically distinct Ruthenian practices are respected and the final product is guided by considerations of pastoral prudence in the specific situation of the Byzantine Ruthenian Church in the United States of America." At It is truly proper ... | 2007 page 77-78 | 1965 pages 35-36 | | The celebrant takes the censer and incenses, commemorating the dead and praying aloud: | | | CELEBRANT: Moreover, we offer you this spiritual sacrifice for those departed in faith: the forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every just spirit brought to perfection in faith. | Moreover, we offer to You this spiritual sacrifice for those who departed in the faith: the forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics and for every just spirit made perfect in the faith. | | | And the priest, taking the censer, intones: | | Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary. | Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary. | | | And he incenses three times before the holy altar. Then the deacon incenses the holy altar round about and he mentions those of the departed whom he wishes. | | The faithful sing: It is truly proper to glorify you, O Theotokos, the ever-blessed, immaculate, and the mother of our God. More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim; who, a virgin, gave birth to God the Word, you, truly the Theotokos, we magnify.
Or, in place of "It is truly proper," the Irmos of the feast is sung with its verse.
The celebrant and concelebrants say quietly:
CELEBRANT AND CONCELEBRANTS: For the holy prophet, forerunner, and baptist John, for the holy, glorious, and illustrious apostles, for the holy (Name/s), whose memory we celebrate, and for all your saints, through whose prayers, O God, watch over us.
Remember as well all who have fallen asleep before us in the hope of resurrection to eternal life. They mention by name the souls of the departed for whom they wish to pray.
And grant them rest where the light of your face watches over them. |
The choir sings: It is truly proper to glorify you, who have borne God, the ever-blessed, immaculate and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who, a virgin, gave birth 'to God the Word; you, truly the Mother of God, we magnify.
Or in place of the 'It is truly proper', the irmos of the feast is sung with its verse.The priest prays: For the holy prophet, precursor and baptist John, for the holy glorious and illustrious apostles, for Saint N., whose memory we celebrate, and for all Your saints, through whose prayers, O God, visit us.
Remember also all who have departed in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. And he mentions by name the souls of the departed whom he wishes. And grant them rest where the light of Your face shines. | | Then the deacon incenses the holy table on the other three sides and mentions those of the departed for whom he wishes to pray. | | | ORDO: | 136 The priest quietly says the prayer: That to those who partake..., and takes the thurible. Censing the Holy Gifts from the front of the Holy Table three times, the priest exclaims: Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed ... Then he covers the chalice with the small veil or lention. The choir sings: It is truly proper ... or instead, the Irmos of the current feast.
While the chanters are singing, the deacon censes around the Holy Table and commemorates by name those of the dead whom he wishes to remember. The priest quietly says: For the holy prophet, precursor and Baptist John, ... and commemorates by name those of the dead whom he wishes to remember, then continues: And grant them rest ...
| | |
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#311195 - 01/30/09 09:33 PM
Re: Other rubrical alterations in the 2007 liturgicon
[Re: ajk]
|
Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3769
Loc: Washington, PA
|
Fr. Deacon Anthony,
I don't know what your doing in Passaic but in Pittsburgh we still incense during the singing of the Irmos. I think this is more a case of typesetting problems than intent to change the rubric. I think the real rubric change here is the priest begins incensing immediately since he takes the whole prayer aloud rather than waiting to incense when he starts the ekphonesis.
Fr. Deacon Lance
_________________________
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#311233 - 01/31/09 10:39 AM
Re: Other rubrical alterations in the 2007 liturgicon
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
|
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
|
I don't know what your doing in Passaic but in Pittsburgh we still incense during the singing of the Irmos. I think this is more a case of typesetting problems than intent to change the rubric. Fr. Deacon Lance et al,. I was surprised to find this apparent change since I did not recall having it pointed out explicitly as a change in practice. Typesetting error or intentional change? It would be nice to know. But as stated, it does change the flow of the liturgy and diverges from the previous and common practice. I think the real rubric change here is the priest begins incensing immediately since he takes the whole prayer aloud rather than waiting to incense when he starts the ekphonesis. This is a good point. I hesitated to emphasize it because it does not alter the flow of the liturgy and is a consequence, as you correctly note, of prayers now being required to be taken aloud that previously were not heard by the people. You are correct, Fr. Deacon, to point it out; thanks.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2011. All rights reserved. |
|
Previous Topic
Index