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Re: If this be true [Re: Carson Daniel] #312481 02/12/09 09:05 PM
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Ghosty Offline
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I recommend everything you can get your hands on, quite honestly. laugh

As far as ease of access goes, though, you can't beat "An Exposition on the Orthodox Faith", which is available online and is wonderful. If you enjoy systematic theology, but want to maintain a "Byzantine perspective", that's the work for you. It was also one of Aquinas' favorite works, and one which had a huge influence on him.

It can be found here:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3304.htm

Peace and God bless!

Last edited by Ghosty; 02/12/09 09:07 PM.
Re: If this be true [Re: Ghosty] #312502 02/13/09 12:32 AM
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lanceg Offline
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Originally Posted by Ghosty
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I was reading again Article II of section on the Proofs for the existence of God in St. Thomas' Summa. I note again that the second objection to being able to have such proofs was set forth by St. John of Damascus "that the subject matter of demonstration is that something exists, but in the case of God we cannot know what exists, but only what does not, as Damascenus says (Of the Orthodox Faith, I., 4.) Hence that we cannot demonstrate God's existence." This is classic Eastern thought characterized as the via negativa. I realized as I read this that while I love our mystical theology that I believe St. Thomas. I do believe that it is possible to know God or at least know with certainty that He exists. Apparently St. John's argument is based upon Hebrews 11 that an article of faith obviates any evidence that we might have. Yet, the entire chapter is set forth as evidence of the existence of God and then there is St. Paul's argument in Romans 1:19-20.

Now it could very well be that St. Thomas has misconstrued St. John's argument but whether he has or not I find St. Thomas' position very compelling.


I don't want to derail this thread too much, but I think for everyone's edification it's worth pointing out that St. John does argue that the existence of God can be proven, and St. Thomas was well aware of this. His statement of the "Objection" is not to refute St. John of Damascus (who actually uses many of the same proofs that St. Thomas does, such as the contingency of natural existence, to show that there must be a God), but to show how people might twist St. John's words to make an argument that he himself never put forward.

This is an important point because you mention that you like St. Thomas' arguments; if that's the case then I recommend reading St. John of Damascus, because he was the popularizer of systematic theology. St. Thomas Aquinas was simply following in his footsteps, and said as much himself. Systematic theology, like that of Aquinas, originated in the Byzantine East and was quite popular there until recently, so you're not breaking with the Byzantine tradition at all (in fact, St. Thomas Aquinas was lauded by many in the East as being the greatest theologian in those areas where East and West agree). grin

Peace and God bless!


Also, St. John made use of Aristotle, like St. Thomas did.

Re: If this be true [Re: lanceg] #312511 02/13/09 02:20 AM
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I'll become Orthodox.

Re: If this be true [Re: Carson Daniel] #312534 02/13/09 01:56 PM
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Dr. Eric Offline
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Originally Posted by carson daniel lauffer
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
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ByzBob said: People interested in becoming Catholic join the RC, those interested in the east typically become Orthodox.


Are there none out there who perhaps want Byzantine worship and theology but feel that union with Rome is the imperative of all Christians?

Alexis



I was reading again Article II of section on the Proofs for the existence of God in St. Thomas' Summa. I note again that the second objection to being able to have such proofs was set forth by St. John of Damascus "that the subject matter of demonstration is that something exists, but in the case of God we cannot know what exists, but only what does not, as Damascenus says (Of the Orthodox Faith, I., 4.) Hence that we cannot demonstrate God's existence." This is classic Eastern thought characterized as the via negativa. I realized as I read this that while I love our mystical theology that I believe St. Thomas. I do believe that it is possible to know God or at least know with certainty that He exists. Apparently St. John's argument is based upon Hebrews 11 that an article of faith obviates any evidence that we might have. Yet, the entire chapter is set forth as evidence of the existence of God and then there is St. Paul's argument in Romans 1:19-20.
CDL


The first UGCC priest that I knew was a Dominican. I asked him how he reconciled Scholasticism with "Eastern" Theology. He said that St. Thomas was heavily influenced by "Eastern" Theology, was consistent with "Eastern" Theology, and only later did the Thomists start to diverge from what "Eastern" Theology already stated.

Re: If this be true [Re: Paul B] #312535 02/13/09 01:59 PM
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Dr. Eric Offline
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Originally Posted by Paul B
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
Quote
ByzBob said: People interested in becoming Catholic join the RC, those interested in the east typically become Orthodox.


Are there none out there who perhaps want Byzantine worship and theology but feel that union with Rome is the imperative of all Christians?

Alexis



The WEAKNESS of the Western Magisterium is the inability to create various EQUAL Churches within the Catholic Church. For example, I see no reason why the fastest growing region (Black Africa) doesn't have its own Rite and rituals. I can imagine Saint Paul blasting the Magisterium for its rigidity, the same as he did to Saint Peter. Until the Roman Catholic Church can break this inability to accept diverse ritual under a common basic theology I don't see a reunion of East and West. The West will simply dominate the East and re-create a new schism.
Fr Deacon Paul


Fr. Deacon Paul,

Have you not read then Cardianl Ratzinger's book The Spirit of the Liturgy in which he describes the Latin Rite in the Congolese Mode? There seems to be a provision for some "inculturation" with the Latin Rite.

Re: If this be true [Re: Dr. Eric] #312546 02/13/09 05:27 PM
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Paul B Offline
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Dr Eric,

No, I haven't read "The Spirit of the Liturgy";I scanned the internet to try to get the flavor, but it didn't really confirm what you suggest. Do you have any quick references?

An pan-black-African Church is a good step forward, but there is a massive Roman shift needed to progress the concept to reality. Just as a Slavic Pope underscored the importance of the "eastern lung" of the Church, the Church needs a black African Pope to emphasize the importance of nourishing the faithful of the developing world.

Getting back to the principle question of this thread.... I agree with Father Serge that the question is non-relevent. But should the impossible happen I would seek faculties in another Eastern Church in Communion with Rome.
Eventually a "federated union" will be acccomplished. The Churches cannot continue stifling the Holy Spirit.

Fr Deacon Paul

Re: If this be true [Re: Paul B] #312558 02/13/09 09:11 PM
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ajk Offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
...Cardianl Ratzinger's book The Spirit of the Liturgy in which he describes the Latin Rite in the Congolese Mode? There seems to be a provision for some "inculturation" with the Latin Rite.


Originally Posted by Paul B
No, I haven't read "The Spirit of the Liturgy";I scanned the internet to try to get the flavor, but it didn't really confirm what you suggest. Do you have any quick references?


See [i]The Spirit of the Liturgy [/i]page 170 and the previous page.

Re: If this be true [Re: ajk] #312669 02/15/09 12:10 AM
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ajk, Thanks for the reference.

It looks like a tidbit; there is much more to make Rome an "umbrella for a true Universal Catholic Church."

I pray that the Spirit moves quickly ...Islam now has more faithful than Catholicism.

Fr Deacon Paul

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