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But, if time is allowed to progress for another 10,000 years Pascha will be in the summer time. Isn't it better to fix the problem now before it gets out of hand?

Re
The "Julian Calendar" thread has something by Fr Andrew Philips which includes this
The problem here is one of authority rather than astronomy.
What has more authority - a Canon claiming to be by the Apostles (but actualy incorporating 4th century Syrian prejudices) or a Papal decree?

Here is "Apostolic" canon VII. (Masterjohn version of The Rudder/Pedalion):
Here is part of the commentary on this canon from the Rudder
The commentary has a variety of errors and prejudices. Here are two:

1) It is not true that the Torah requires synchronisation of Passover with the Vernal Equinox. In fact the Torah does not mention equinoxes.
Instead the original Hebrew Calendar realigned its Lunar calendar periodically so that the month of Abib/Aviv (barley) would be at the time of the barley harvest in Judea (Abib was renamed Nisan in Babylonian times). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abib
This means that due to varying agriculture conditions in Judea, the 14 of Nisan could legitimately sometimes be before the Vernal Equinox.

2) This canon could not have been by the Apostles.
As proof look up Quartodeciman (Latin term for someone who celebrated Easter on the Jewish Passover). This was the tradition that Apostle John brought to the area of Ephesus. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodecimanism
It is not possible that St John the Apostle would have agreed to this "Apostolic" canon VII (since he would have declared himself deposed).

Azarius,

One thing your post helps to clarify is just how deep-seated the EOC's adherence to the Julian Paschalion is.

When the GC was first introduced it was quickly and soundly rejected by the EOC, primarily for the reasons given by Fr. Andrew Philips. Thank you for quoting him.

One point I have been trying to make in this thread is that the EOC is not going to budge on this issue, no matter how effectively we might "prove" their assumptions to be invalid. If we as RCs/ECs are the slightest bit serious about wanting reunion with the EOC, we are going to have to be willing to yield on this point! (And let us not forget that we will be asking the EOC to yield on something even harder--namely to accept the idea that the Filioque is not heretical!)

As Fr. David put it so well earlier in this thread:
I think this says it all. It is possible to be "right" with regard to external facts and still be wrong with regard to what really matters ...


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Todd's point here is clearly that Pascha is not going to start falling in June until some time after 3978. I fail to perceive why you think this constitutes an emergency.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I am a member of the Greek Archdiocese, but have been a member of an OCA parish that had only stone floors! Please let us keep the kneelers. My knees could not then and now handle cold stone floors. Chalk it up to the fact that i was raised in a Latin parish that used padded kneelers as does the Greek parish i have belonged to since 1980!

I appreciate that science types are around to crunch the numbers and give predictions for the year 3978, a long way off, but confirming that Pascha is indeed on the move in the Julian calendar. That is the point, and that is not supposed to happen; that is not the way a calendar is supposed to work. Or is that not so?

The failure to perceive and the confusion are explained by the fact that I do not think nor have I said that this is an emergency, as stated.

John
I am a hard rigorists.
I thought the seminary I studied at had gone to "hell in a handbasket" when they padded the kneelers, which had priviously been wood.
Caloused knees where good for the soul!
Stephanos I

It might be more sensible to leave the calendar alone and start preparing for the Parousia.

Fr. Serge

I agree with Fr Serge!

One of my dreams (fantasies?) is to attend Holy Week in ALL of the liturgical traditions of the apostolic Churches, whilst regularly attending Holy Week in my parent Latin Rite. I guess I wouldn't be able to accomplish this dream if everyone observed Holy Week at the same time! So, I have one selfish reason for not wanting any calendar changes for at least another generation

We did not need to confirm that Pascha is on the move in the Julian calendar--no one is arguing that it is not. However, the same statement serves to confirm that the Julian Paschalion is not going to be slipping out to June in the next 20 years--or the next 200 years. The point is that we can continue to let this calendar issue divide us, or we can concede--the discussions on this forum have led me to conclude that there really is no other choice.

What Our Lord said of the Sabbath--that it was made for man, and not man for it--could easily be applied to the calendar as well. This is why I think the requirement of I Nicaea for following the Alexandrian formula is secondary to the requirement of the same council that all Christians celebrate Pascha on the same day.

Well, then I'm puzzled at the meaning of this statement:

Well, to add confusion, but perhaps an "off the wall" idea might be possible given the stalemate of the two sides in this debate, how about doing both? As with many organizations with two strong sides, they "share" leadership by alternating -- so when the dates don't coincide already, let's all agree to "alternate" the calculation from Julian to Gregorian each year, skipping those years when they are common. The next 15 years might look like this:

Common Pascha Compromise

Year -- Gregorian -- Julian -- Compromise

2010 -- April 4 -- April 4 -- April 4
2011 -- April 24 -- April 24 -- April 24
2012 -- April 8 -- April 15 -- April 15 (J)
2013 -- March 31 -- May 5 -- March 31 (G)
2014 -- April 20 -- April 20 -- April 20
2015 -- April 5 -- April 12 -- April 12 (J)
2016 -- March 27 -- May 1 -- March 27 (G)
2017 -- April 16 -- April 16 -- April 16
2018 -- April 1 -- April 8 -- April 8 (J)
2019 -- April 21 -- April 28 -- April 21 (G)
2020 -- April 12 -- April 19 -- April 19 (J)
2021 -- April 4 -- May 2 -- April 4 (G)
2022 -- April 17 -- April 24 -- April 24 (J)
2023 -- April 9 -- April 16 -- April 9 (G)
2024 -- March 31 -- May 5 -- May 5 (J)
2025 -- April 20 -- April 20 -- April 20

This way we ALL agree unity is paramount, and jointly agree to keep track and alternate from year to year when they are not the same. This may result in bigger swings from late March to early May, but ... if we're all together, maybe the variety would be interesting!

Regarding fixed dates, also keep both as today since the Greeks seem quite happy with Gregorian Christmas but Julian Pascha. At least we would all celebrate Pascha together!

Just thinking outside the box! BTW: Does anyone know if something like this was considered in that Aleppo meeting of the WCC?

Jack Figel

I'm glad to hear that, but is it so, that "no one is arguing that it is not" on the move? I honestly have my doubts. I would like to hear confirmation of that from Julian calendar supporters, and anyone who may have the big picture in mind, their gaze fixd on the parousia. Shall we wait to hear from (some of) them as confirmation, before moving on to other points? Perhaps there is a misunderstanding on what is being argued and advance, and we should establish and prioritize essential facts, one-by-one.

Again, I say establish and prioritize essential facts, not conclusions about what anyone or churches should do. Let's just confirm the facts rather than dictating policy.

So I await the answer(s). Do we agree (within the given context) that "Pascha is on the move in the Julian calendar"?

Would supporters of the Julian calendar/Paschalion agree - unity before following "I Nicaea"?

To better focus my response, what specific word of phrase is not understood or puzzling?

I've never heard it as a topic of discussion in the off-line world. I consider the Julien calendar normative for the calculation of Pascha, and I would not support any movement to change that.