The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Pater Patrick, EasternChristian, Edddd, Annapolis Melkites, Daniel Hoseiny
5,996 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 239 guests, and 43 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,396
Posts416,762
Members5,996
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#313547 02/24/09 06:40 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
A
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Saw this picture of the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church in Winnipeg:

http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/fotogalleries/church_buildling/gal_building1.htm

There is clearly no iconostasis, and the website also speaks of side altars.

What I'd like to know is... how common is it to have UGCC and Ruthenian churches without iconostases? I guess they are a small minority only... but I'd like to have expert info.

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
I also noticed on their webpage that there is a recited liturgy...I think this is the only parish I have ever heard of that has a recited and not chanted Liturgy.

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
There is an article on the site about the Iconostasis, stating that
Quote
The iconostasis is so integral to churches of the Ukrainian rite that a church (and chapel) without one is considered unfit for divine worship.

http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/ourfaith/art_faith017.Iconostas.htm

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 695
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 695
It all depends where (and sometimes local history)whether UGCC parishes have an iconostas.

eg: in Manitoba (Canada) an iconostas is rare.
(I would suspect that that is the case in most of Western Canada)

While in Ontario, having an iconostas is normal. (even though they rarely follow the rubrics vis a vis the Holy Doors)

In Ukraine, I think having an iconostas is also the rule.

But as the forces of reform ("Byzantinization") gain ground, the iconostas is making a slow but steady come-back.

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 442
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 442
Yikes !!! How can this be?

Converted Viking

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 695
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 695
We've come a long ways and we've a long ways to go yet!

Much of the ethos of the Eastern Churches consisted (and in many places still consists) in just being Ethnic Latin Catholics. Or as some have said "RCs with a weird mass". (as opposed to seeing ourselves as fully Orthodox who have reaffirmed their Communion with Rome - yet without ceasing to be fully Orthodox in theology, spirituality, liturgy etc.)

Thus the mentality is "if we are Catholics, then we want to, as much as possible define ourselves against the Orthodox" - thus no iconostas ("that's Orthodox"), in the UGCC - no 3-barred crosses ("that's Orthodox"), no clerical hats ("that's Orthodox"), no small prosphora with intentions ("that's Orthodox"), no high-back phelons ("that's Orthodox"), indeed NO ICONs ("that's Orthodox"), no closing of the Holy Doors, no blessing with the Christogramme, no using the word "Orthodox" at the Great Entrance, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I keep wondering why they don't also jettison the Divine Liturgy (which they call "mass") and the Lord's Prayer - because the Orthodox use those too!

Whenever there is an issue or problem, some people look only to the Latins to see how they deal with it. They would never look to the Orthodox to see how they deal with it (Horrors! :-0

Thanks be to God some of this mentality is changing - but VERY slowly and Painfully in many quarters.


Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
A
AMM Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
The section on fasting and abstinence is interesting.

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
Saw this picture of the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church in Winnipeg:

http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/fotogalleries/church_buildling/gal_building1.htm

There is clearly no iconostasis, and the website also speaks of side altars.

What I'd like to know is... how common is it to have UGCC and Ruthenian churches without iconostases? I guess they are a small minority only... but I'd like to have expert info.

There clearly is an iconostasis. It may not have doors but clearly there are four icons fastened to partial screens. The point of the sreen is to seperate the altar and nave and provide a place to put the icons. It need not be floor to ceiling Novgorod style to qualify.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 213
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 213
this is the iconostasis at the nearest Greek Orthodox Church to me here [stpaulsirvine.org] . Its the first one I have seen like it.


Last edited by DewiMelkite; 02/25/09 01:18 AM.
AMM #313597 02/25/09 02:06 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
A
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Originally Posted by AMM
The section on fasting and abstinence is interesting.

http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/ourfaith/art_faith010.FAQ.htm

Quite interesting. I didn't know that the UGCC has adopted the Latin practice on fasting (except that First Friday of Lent has been put in place of Ash Wednesday

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 02/25/09 02:19 AM.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
I am sorry if I offend, but that simply looks and feels wrong.

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral:
http://www.atlgoc.org/icongr2.html


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Fr. Deacon,

Where exactly are the icons fastened to partial screens? I see icons on the walls, but they are clearly behind or to the sides of the Holy Table, not necessarily conducive to being considered an icon screen.

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Sorry I thought the icon screen shown here:
http://members.tripod.com/old_rite_orthodox/index.html
was St. Nicholas' but it is another church's.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
asianpilgrim,

Since I know see the correct picture, I would say it is rare today to see a church without at least icons of Christ and the Theotokos on stands. The lack of even this at St. Nicholas is surprising to me.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2023). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5