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Without Iconostasis #313547
02/24/09 06:40 PM
02/24/09 06:40 PM
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asianpilgrim Offline OP
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Saw this picture of the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church in Winnipeg:

http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/fotogalleries/church_buildling/gal_building1.htm

There is clearly no iconostasis, and the website also speaks of side altars.

What I'd like to know is... how common is it to have UGCC and Ruthenian churches without iconostases? I guess they are a small minority only... but I'd like to have expert info.

Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: asianpilgrim] #313555
02/24/09 06:55 PM
02/24/09 06:55 PM
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Erie Byz Offline
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I also noticed on their webpage that there is a recited liturgy...I think this is the only parish I have ever heard of that has a recited and not chanted Liturgy.

Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Erie Byz] #313556
02/24/09 07:02 PM
02/24/09 07:02 PM
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There is an article on the site about the Iconostasis, stating that
Quote
The iconostasis is so integral to churches of the Ukrainian rite that a church (and chapel) without one is considered unfit for divine worship.


http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/ourfaith/art_faith017.Iconostas.htm

Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Erie Byz] #313572
02/24/09 10:23 PM
02/24/09 10:23 PM
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It all depends where (and sometimes local history)whether UGCC parishes have an iconostas.

eg: in Manitoba (Canada) an iconostas is rare.
(I would suspect that that is the case in most of Western Canada)

While in Ontario, having an iconostas is normal. (even though they rarely follow the rubrics vis a vis the Holy Doors)

In Ukraine, I think having an iconostas is also the rule.

But as the forces of reform ("Byzantinization") gain ground, the iconostas is making a slow but steady come-back.

Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: asianpilgrim] #313573
02/24/09 10:28 PM
02/24/09 10:28 PM
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Yikes !!! How can this be?

Converted Viking

Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Converted Viking] #313574
02/24/09 11:41 PM
02/24/09 11:41 PM
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Herbigny Offline
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We've come a long ways and we've a long ways to go yet!

Much of the ethos of the Eastern Churches consisted (and in many places still consists) in just being Ethnic Latin Catholics. Or as some have said "RCs with a weird mass". (as opposed to seeing ourselves as fully Orthodox who have reaffirmed their Communion with Rome - yet without ceasing to be fully Orthodox in theology, spirituality, liturgy etc.)

Thus the mentality is "if we are Catholics, then we want to, as much as possible define ourselves against the Orthodox" - thus no iconostas ("that's Orthodox"), in the UGCC - no 3-barred crosses ("that's Orthodox"), no clerical hats ("that's Orthodox"), no small prosphora with intentions ("that's Orthodox"), no high-back phelons ("that's Orthodox"), indeed NO ICONs ("that's Orthodox"), no closing of the Holy Doors, no blessing with the Christogramme, no using the word "Orthodox" at the Great Entrance, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I keep wondering why they don't also jettison the Divine Liturgy (which they call "mass") and the Lord's Prayer - because the Orthodox use those too!

Whenever there is an issue or problem, some people look only to the Latins to see how they deal with it. They would never look to the Orthodox to see how they deal with it (Horrors! :-0

Thanks be to God some of this mentality is changing - but VERY slowly and Painfully in many quarters.


Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Herbigny] #313579
02/25/09 12:12 AM
02/25/09 12:12 AM
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The section on fasting and abstinence is interesting.

Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: asianpilgrim] #313588
02/25/09 01:00 AM
02/25/09 01:00 AM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
Saw this picture of the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church in Winnipeg:

http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/fotogalleries/church_buildling/gal_building1.htm

There is clearly no iconostasis, and the website also speaks of side altars.

What I'd like to know is... how common is it to have UGCC and Ruthenian churches without iconostases? I guess they are a small minority only... but I'd like to have expert info.


There clearly is an iconostasis. It may not have doors but clearly there are four icons fastened to partial screens. The point of the sreen is to seperate the altar and nave and provide a place to put the icons. It need not be floor to ceiling Novgorod style to qualify.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #313592
02/25/09 01:18 AM
02/25/09 01:18 AM
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this is the iconostasis at the nearest Greek Orthodox Church to me here . Its the first one I have seen like it.


Last edited by DewiMelkite; 02/25/09 01:18 AM.
Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: AMM] #313597
02/25/09 02:06 AM
02/25/09 02:06 AM
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asianpilgrim Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AMM
The section on fasting and abstinence is interesting.


http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/ourfaith/art_faith010.FAQ.htm

Quite interesting. I didn't know that the UGCC has adopted the Latin practice on fasting (except that First Friday of Lent has been put in place of Ash Wednesday

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 02/25/09 02:19 AM.
Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: asianpilgrim] #313601
02/25/09 02:30 AM
02/25/09 02:30 AM
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I am sorry if I offend, but that simply looks and feels wrong.

Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Father Borislav] #313605
02/25/09 03:25 AM
02/25/09 03:25 AM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral:
http://www.atlgoc.org/icongr2.html


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Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #313608
02/25/09 03:39 AM
02/25/09 03:39 AM
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Fr. Deacon,

Where exactly are the icons fastened to partial screens? I see icons on the walls, but they are clearly behind or to the sides of the Holy Table, not necessarily conducive to being considered an icon screen.

Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Erie Byz] #313610
02/25/09 03:54 AM
02/25/09 03:54 AM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Sorry I thought the icon screen shown here:
http://members.tripod.com/old_rite_orthodox/index.html
was St. Nicholas' but it is another church's.


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Re: Without Iconostasis [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #313611
02/25/09 03:57 AM
02/25/09 03:57 AM
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asianpilgrim,

Since I know see the correct picture, I would say it is rare today to see a church without at least icons of Christ and the Theotokos on stands. The lack of even this at St. Nicholas is surprising to me.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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