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QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 #314016
03/02/09 05:02 AM
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Alice Offline OP
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Dear Clergy and Friends,

Please give me your interpretation of this passage. It is very important to me to hear what you have to say about it.

Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

Thank you.

Alice

Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Alice] #314022
03/02/09 09:45 AM
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An obvious meaning would be that the scribe is being told something like "Don't expect an easy life if you want to join the Apostles".

Here is a figurative interpretation from Pope St Gregory the Great (Morals on the book of Job - 19 chapter 1)
Quote
Cunning foxes hide in their lairs and run on crooked, winding paths; birds ascend on the wing. These symbolize, therefore, that crafty and exalted demons dwell in his heart; nor can Christ’s humility find rest in a proud mind.



Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Azarius] #314067
03/02/09 06:01 PM
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The non-figurative reading fits well with the context of this verse which is part of a section dealing with discipleship and renunciation and follows on as a response to a scribe's statement that he will follow Jesus wherever he will go. It appears, from the commentators, by the way, that this is the first time the title "Son of Man" appears in Matthew.

Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Alice] #314336
03/05/09 02:10 AM
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Alice,

I looked it up in the JBC (Jerome Biblical Commentary)
This is what it says:
20. Foxes have holes: Jesus answers with a figurative saying which teaches that since he leads a risky, unsettled, itinerant way of life, the disciples can expect no better. The son of Man: The first occurance of this peculiar phrase in Matt......it is found only on the lips of Jesus in the Gospels, a fact which probably reflects an authentic tradition that Jesus did refer to himself in this way.

I love my JBC.

Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Cmoore] #314339
03/05/09 03:26 AM
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Haydock's Bible Commentary

Ver. 20. By the fox is meant craft and cunning, by the birds pride. Thus then our blessed Lord answered him; pride and deceit dwell in your heart, but you have left no place for the Son of Man to rest his head, who can rest only in the meek and humble. (St. Augustine) --- Jesus Christ rejected this scribe, because he wished to follow Jesus rather through the desire of glory and wealth, hoping to be great in his kingdom, than with the design of perfecting himself in virtue; so that our Saviour answers him: You cannot expect riches from me; who am poorer than the beasts of the field, or birds of the air; they have a place of rest, whereas I have none. (Menochius)


Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Jakub.] #314553
03/06/09 06:12 PM
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I am fond of St. Thomas' Catena Aurea, where the Angelic Doctor collates the comments of numerous Fathers:

Quote
18. Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side.

19. And a certain Scribe came, and said unto him, “Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.”

20. And Jesus saith unto him, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.”

21. And another of his disciples said unto him, “Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.”

22. But Jesus said unto him, “Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.”

Chrys.: Because Christ not only healed the body, but purified the soul also, He desired to shew forth true wisdom, not only by curing diseases, but by doing nothing316 with ostentation; and therefore it is said, “Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he commanded his disciples to cross over to the other side.” This He did at once teaching us to be lowly, softening the ill-will of the Jews, and teaching us to do nothing with ostentation.

Remig.: Or; He did this as one desiring to shun the thronging of the multitude. But they hung upon Him in admiration, crowding to see Him. For who would depart from one who did such miracles? Who would not wish to look upon His open face, to see His mouth that spoke such things? For if Moses’ countenance was made glorious, and Stephen’s as that of an Angel, gather from this how it was to have been supposed that their common Lord must have then appeared; of whom the Prophet speaks, “Thy form is fair above the sons of men.” [Ps 45:2]

Hilary: The name “disciples” is not to be supposed to be confined to the twelve Apostles; for we read of many disciples besides the twelve.

Aug.: It is clear that this day on which they went over the lake was another day, and not that which followed the one on which Peter’s mother-in-law was healed, on which day Mark and Luke relate that He went out into the desert.

Chrys.: Observe that He does not dismiss the multitudes, that He may not offend them. He did say to them, Depart ye, but bade His disciples go away from thence, thus the crowds might hope to be able to follow.

Remig.: What happened between the command of the Lord given, and their crossing over, the Evangelist purposes to relate in what follows: “And one of the Scribes came to him and said, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.”

Jerome: This Scribe of the Law who knew but the perishing letter, would not have been turned away had his address been, ‘Lord, I will follow Thee.’ But because he esteemed the Saviour only as one of many masters, and was a ‘man of the letter’ [margin note: literator] (which is better expressed in Greek, γραμματεὺς) not a spiritual hearer, therefore he had no place where Jesus might lay His head. It is suggested to us that he sought to follow the Lord, because of His great miracles, for the sake of the gain to be derived from them; and was therefore rejected; seeking the same thing as did Simon317 Magus when he would have given Peter money.

Chrys.: Observe also how great his pride; approaching and speaking as though he disdained to be considered as one of the multitude; desiring to shew that he was above the rest.

Hilary: Otherwise; This Scribe being one of the doctors of the Law, asks if he shall follow Him, as though it were not contained in the Law that this is He whom it were gain to follow. Therefore He discovers the feeling of unbelief under the diffidence of his enquiry. For the taking up of the faith is not by question but by following.

Chrys.: So Christ answers him not so much to what he had said, but to the obvious purpose of his mind. “Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head;” as though He had said;

Jerome: . . Why do you seek to follow Me for the sake of the riches and gain of this world, when My poverty is such that I have neither lodging nor home of My own?

Chrys.: This was not to send him away, but rather to convict him of evil intentions; at the same time permitting him if he would to follow Christ with the expectation of poverty.

Aug., Serm., 100, 1: Otherwise; “The Son of man hath not where to lay his head;” that is, in your faith. “The foxes have hole,” in your heart, because you are deceitful. “The birds of the air have nests,” in your heart, because you are proud. Deceitful and proud follow Me not; for how should guile follow sincerity?

Greg., Mor., xix. 1: Otherwise; The fox is a crafty animal, lying hid in ditches and dens, and when it comes abroad never going in a straight path, but in crooked windings; birds raise themselves in the air. By the foxes then are meant the subtle and deceitful daemons, by the birds the proud daemons; as though He had said; Deceitful and proud daemons have their abode in your heart; but my lowliness finds no rest in a proud spirit.

Aug., Quaest. in Matt., q. 5: He was moved to follow Christ because of the miracles; this vain desire of glory is signified by the birds; but he assumed the submissiveness of a disciple, which deceit is signified by the foxes.

Rabanus: Heretics confiding in their art are signified by the foxes, the evil spirits by the birds of the air, who have their holes and their nests, that is, their abodes in the heart of the Jewish people.318

“Another of his disciples saith unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.”

Jerome: In what one thing is this disciple like the Scribe? The one called Him Master, the other confesses Him as his Lord. The one from filial piety asks permission to go and bury his father; the other offers to follow, not seeking a master, but by means of his master seeking gain for himself.

Hilary: The disciple does not ask whether he shall follow Him; for he already believed that he ought to follow, but prays to be suffered first to bury his father.

Aug., Serm., 100, 1: The Lord when He prepares men for the Gospel will not have any excuse of this fleshly and temporal attachment to interfere, therefore it follows; “Jesus said unto him, Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their dead.”

Chrys.: This saying does not condemn natural affection to our parents, but shews that nothing ought to be more binding on us than the business of heaven; that to this we ought to apply ourselves with all our endeavours, and not to be slack, however necessary or urgent are the things that draw us aside. For what could be more necessary than to bury a father? What more easy? For it could not need much time. But in this the Lord rescued him from much evil, weeping, and mourning, and from the pains of expectation. For after the funeral there must come examination of the will, division of the inheritance, and other things of the same sort; and thus trouble following trouble, like the waves, would have borne him far from the port of truth. But if you are not yet satisfied, reflect further that oftentimes the weak are not permitted to know the time, or to follow to the grave; even though the dead be father, mother, or son; yet are they not charged with cruelty that hinder them; it is rather the reverse of cruelty. And it is a much greater evil to draw one away from spiritual discourse; especially when there were who should perform the rites; as here, “Leave the dead to bury their dead.”

Aug.: As much as to say; Thy father is dead; but there are also other dead who shall bury their dead, because they are in unbelief.

Chrys.: This moreover shews that this dead man was not his; for, I suppose, he that was dead was of the unbelieving. If you wonder at the young man, that in a matter so necessary he should have asked Jesus, and not have gone away of his own accord,319 wonder much more that he abode with Jesus after he was forbidden to depart; which was not from lack of affection, but that he might not interrupt a business yet more necessary.

Hilary: Also, because we are taught in the beginning of the Lord’s prayer, first to say, “Our Father, which art in heaven;” and since this disciple represents the believing people; he is here reminded that he has one only Father in heaven [margin note: Matt 23:9], and that between a believing son and an unbelieving father the filial relation does not hold good. We are also admonished that the unbelieving dead are not to be mingled with the memories of the saints; and that they are also dead who live out of God; and the dead are buried by the dead, because by the faith of God it behoves the living to cleave to the living (God).

Jerome: But if the dead shall bury the dead, we ought not to be careful for the dead but for the living, lest while we are anxious for the dead, we ourselves should be counted dead.

Greg., Mor., iv, 27: The dead also bury the dead, when sinners protect sinners. They who exalt sinners with their praises, hide the dead under a pile of words.

Rabanus: From this we may also take occasion to observe, that lesser goods are to be sometimes forfeited for the sake of securing greater.

Aug., De Cons. Evan., ii, 23: Matthew relates that this was done when He gave them commandment that they should go over the lake, Luke, that it happened as they walked by the way; which is no contradiction, for they must have walked by the way that they might come to the lake.


Source:
[i]Catena Aurea[/i], Gospel of Saint Matthew, chapter 8.

Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Alice] #315190
03/13/09 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Alice

Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

Thank you.

Alice


Dear Alice ...

It is not clear to me that Jesus rejected the man. It does not come to my mind that Jesus rejected anyone - but at times he reflected to them what he knew was in their hearts. Jesus could read the hearts of people and we are most often blind to our own condition. Sometimes Jesus is bunt when he shows us what is in our hearts and it hurts - other times he hints at our condition and softly invites us to see ourselves.

Luke 9:57 gives more detail.

There are three men.

Correlate Matthew and Luke to get the full picture.

"And as they were going on their way" ... makes it sound like they were already disciples and in the group who was walking (following) Jesus already. So it is not like Jesus and his disciples were walking along and up came three strangers who wanted to join the group - they were already walking with him..

The first man (a disciple) is described as a scribe (intellectual) and the second man is described like this "And another of the disciples said to him ..", and the third man is "And another said to him" ... another what? Another disciple. These are all described as already - disciples following Jesus.

So this seems to say that they were already disciples.

What is happening here is that Jesus (and those following him as disciples) are heading to Jerusalem for the last time and the storm is gathering (notice that the very next event is the storm on the waters where the disciples are frightened). The real storm that is coming is his arrest and crucifixion and the persecution of his followers.

Each of the three are following Jesus right now .. as disciples .. and what Jesus says to them reflects something about them. As I say, Jesus does not reject them as disciples .. but he knows what is in our hearts and he reflects that to us.

Our biggest blindness is to our own condition .. our own motivation. The scary part about Jesus is he tends to reveal our inner most thoughts - to us. He is to us often like a mirror so that we can see what we could not see.

And so I suspect that if we examine all three (what they say and what Jesus responds) we will know two things about each.

First - we will know why they are following Jesus right now - and secondly - why thy will fall away later when the storm hits (his arrest / crucifixion / and their own persecution)..

Keep in mind that Jesus knows them intimately - and Jesus knows what is going to happen on this last journey to Jerusalem and his death.

Q:What is unique about the first man?
A: He is called a scribe.

A scribe is an intellectual. Highly educated. Someone that others come to for explanations of scriptures. And so I would say that Jesus is telling us (reflecting back to the scribe) that the reason he is a disciple and following Jesus is for intellectual reasons. Seeking knowledge. Amazed at Jesus' understanding of scriptures he follows Jesus so that he might have more knowledge. This is a man of intellect.

Q: What is unique about the second deciple?
A: He wants to interrupt following Jesus and go to bury his father.

This man is already a disciples ("And another, who was one of the disciples...") so what is going on here is - although he had already been following Jesus - something more important in his mind has come up. This seems to indicate to me that this man follows the rules because it was his duty under Jewish law to bury his father. So this man followed Jesus because he thought it was his duty to follow Jesus. Some inner law required him to follow Jesus and he would have felt guilty if he did not follow Jesus. This man follows the law out of some inner felling of guilt. He feels he must do the 'right' thing. This man is motivated to do what is 'right'.

Q: What is unique about the third disciple?
A: "Let me bid farewell to those at home."

Notice in the reply that Jesus gives ("No one who puts his hand to the plow..") means that this man too has already begun discipleship - he is already following Jesus. But now he remembers the past (his family) and wants to interrupt (time out) of his following in order to close-out his old life (his past). This man wants a new life - but feels his past must be settled - finished - neatly closed out - first - before he becomes a new man.

And don't we all feel that way? I think so. We can't let go of our past. We would like it all to make sense (our past ways) and be neatly packaged. We want to repair it. Justify it. Save it form being wrong. This man follows Jesus because he wants to right his past - somehow in following Jesus his past becomes justified.

None of this mean can be faulted. When we do follow Jesus .. we all .. begin for the wrong reasons. As we progress ... the imperfect reasons slip away ... but not unless we come to realizes that we had been following him for the wrong reasons .. first.

Do I follow Jesus because I want intellectual enlightenment? This is a good reason for a start smile but this reason can only take us so far and no farther.

Do I follow Jesus because I am a Catholic, an Orthodox, a Byzantine ... this is a good reason and it is the law (I am supposed to) for me to follow Jesus ... but this too can only takes us so far and no father.

Do I follow Jesus because my past was not what it should have been ... I feel guilty and like a failure ... and by following Jesus my past life is now saved from being such a mixed up mess? This too is a good reasons but can only takes one so far and no farther.

It seems to me that for anyone of us ... the reasons that we follow Jesus are imperfect. Selfish. But as we do follow our reasons should change - and become progressively less imperfect.

I do not think there is really any 'good reason' to follow Jesus. All reasons can fall away. Only when there are no more reasons and nothing to gain - but we still follow - has our discipleship become perfect.

That day will come if we are patient. We can not fake it before hand. God must show us out imperfect reasons when he thinks the time is right for that ... but he shows us our faults not so that we feel guilt (like the second man) but so that we let go of the past (like the third man was advised to do). At every stage we must let go of the past.

Peace to all.
ray

Last edited by Ray Kaliss; 03/13/09 02:59 AM.
Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Alice] #315206
03/13/09 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Alice
Dear Clergy and Friends,

Please give me your interpretation of this passage. It is very important to me to hear what you have to say about it.

Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

Thank you.

Alice



Alice,

I interpret it as Jesus complaining about how unwelcome He is in this world and as Jesus openly inviting people to welcome Him into their lives and hearts.

the sinner,

-- John

Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: harmon3110] #315218
03/13/09 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by harmon3110
[quote=Alice]
I interpret it as Jesus complaining about how unwelcome He is in this world and as Jesus openly inviting people to welcome Him into their lives and hearts.

the sinner,

-- John


I think you are right John.

John was the only disciple who did not fall away. There was nothing he could do - but he did not fall away and stood at the foot of the cross with Mary.

So .. I think the only 'good reason' to follow Jesus is - friendship. All the other reasons fall short and are imperfect.

I am reminded that John lay his head on Jesus during supper. And so it is possible that this phrase of having somewhere to lay one's head - may be very connected with the concept of friendship.

Peace be with you.

-ray

Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Ray Kaliss] #315246
03/13/09 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray Kaliss
I do not think there is really any 'good reason' to follow Jesus. All reasons can fall away. Only when there are no more reasons and nothing to gain - but we still follow - has our discipleship become perfect.
Ray,

This is an interesting point, but I think there really is a 'good reason' to follow Jesus. Let us not forget that for the Eastern Fathers, 'good' is a transcendent quality that cannot be reduced to our limited categories of thought.

St. John tells us that "God is Love," and St. Paul states that "the love of Christ compels us." Love, in this sense, can be seen as the ultimate compelling force (perhaps 'energy' is a better term here than 'force'), and we can either respond to it or not. However, since this love has been planted in our hearts, we cannot fail to respond without betraying ourselves.

I think that qualifies a a 'good reason.'


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Epiphanius] #315333
03/14/09 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
However, since this love has been planted in our hearts, we cannot fail to respond without betraying ourselves.

I think that qualifies a a 'good reason.'


Peace,
Deacon Richard


Yes.

Perhaps I was being poetic. I think we can all agree that John (who did not run away but even risked standing at the foot of the cross near His mother) took his place there out of that human love we call friendship.

John describes himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Now allow my mind to wander a bit.

I am not sure that we can call love - a 'reason' in as much as something that is a 'reason' is something that is a rational that we use to form our judgments of the psychological mind.

Let us examine this by backtracking a bit.

I am fairly confident in my assessment of the three disciples. As this event took place just as Jesus had just left Galilee and was headed for Jerusalem for the third and final time ... a storm was brewing and I think it appropriate that the next event of the gospels (after the three disciples) is that Jesus and the apostles board a boat and a great storm comes in which Jesus is sleeping and the disciples are all in a panic and fear that they will die. This is an appropriate pre-figure of what will happen in Jerusalem and so facing this storm would be the context of the exchange with the three disciples.

Now the disciples and apostles to this point ... were imagining that Jesus would enter Jerusalem and a Maccabean stlyle revolt would take place where (with miraculous intervention) the Romans occupation would be expelled and the illegitimate king Herod would be replaced by a legitimate son of David (Jesus). The apostles would head up the revived Davidic government and the rest of the disciples certainly would have some part in establishing the new government. So while there might be skirmishes ... an overwhelming victory was assured via God's intervention.

This is what (I believe) the three disciples (who were already following Jesus as disciples) were referring to at this point. That is: 'following' here is ... following Jesus into Jerusalem for this final show down.

With Jesus's father on their side and an army of angles it would be a cake walk ... and so what all disciples were facing (as the government changed hands) was a bit of apparent danger plus a great responsibility (setting up the new government).

As the disciples believed that D-day was just a short trip to Jerusalem away now .. one said 'I am ready to follow you anywhere.' while the other two wished to do a final wrapping up of private life before the final 'battle'.

However Jesus, knowing that it was not going to be anything like the quick-change-cake-walk the disciples imagined ... but rather instead be experienced as the total collapse of his (Jesus') reformation ... Jesus holds up a mirror to each of the three. What is reflected is the reason (the rational) behind their motivations for following Him up to this point. And in the mind of Jesus these reasons are also the weaknesses by which each of the three will fall away under what really lay ahead.

The scribe because he was following Jesus for the sake of his own enlightenment. The next disciple because he thought it his religious-patriotic duty to follow the true son of David (in other words it was the right things to do), and the last disciple because of the emotion to this teacher and to this expected historical event.

Point being that these are all ... reasons ... products of the rational mind which is the psychological mind. While I maintain that genuine love is a natural rising of conscience.

The rational mind always has as its goal - self gain and self benefit. While I would say that genuine love (perhaps better called friendship or as the Buddhists call it 'compassion') is entirely neutral to self-gain.

And so, in my examination, I would say that love should not be classified as a 'reason' as it is rather a direct motivation ... and not a factor (rational) that can be used to form a judgment.

Of course smile I am being semantic. If my wife were to ask "Why do you stay with me?" I would automatically give the reason as "Because I love you." We are in practicality not all that fussy about the use of the word 'reason' when used in every-day language.

So I would suggest that if we follow Jesus for the 'reason' of love ... this is a judgment we have made ... and implicit in a psychological judgment is some type of expected self-gain (heaven? joy? a smooth ride here on earth? right-ness?)

Now as I sit here ... it just came to me that Meister Eckhart speaks to this when he describes the 'nobleman' as the man who is detached. One should love God in total freedom - free from the motivation of gain or lose. In the Tao this total detachment is called 'true person' and the term Tao is about equal to our ideas of the Logos and to the acts of Providence.

Quote

Eckhart...

“You should know that true detachment is nothing else but a mind that stands unmoved by all accidents of joy or sorrow, honor, shame or disgrace, as a mountain of lead stands unmoved by a breath of wind. This immovable detachment brings a man into the greatest likeness to God.”


Some say that love is only genuine when it grows in freedom. I think I agree with that. If a man is attached to something (a woman, a car, money, even an idea of God) it may seem like love (and we often call it love) but without freedom - it is attachment and involuntary - with ultimately a motivation of self-gain in some way or another.

I myself would add that our created mind (the psychological mind of reasonings, logic, and judgments) is incapable of knowing God nor is the mind of the body. The mind of the body can only know by way of sense perception and the psychological mind can only deal with symbols. Direct knowledge of God can only take place through enlightenment which is only appropriate to 'person' (that is: directly to conscience and to consciousness).

Dear Deacon.. this post is not a criticism of your use of the words 'a good reason' to love God. I agree with that. I simply used that as a springboard to dive into a deeper examination.

It seems to me that contemplation is the ground of total detachment in which we love God in freedom.

(my random thoughts smile )

Peace to you Deacon. It is always a pleasure to deal with your sharp mind smile

-ray


Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Ray Kaliss] #315361
03/14/09 06:11 PM
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Quote
I do not think there is really any 'good reason' to follow Jesus. All reasons can fall away. Only when there are no more reasons and nothing to gain - but we still follow - has our discipleship become perfect.


ray,

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

I always start with the language, being one of those terrible person trained in language analysis. Old English "good" and "god" are one and the same interchangeable.

Following Jesus is the "godly" thing to do. We're hard-wired to search for our Creator. If we didn't have the gift of faith, it would still make sense because of the miracles He did and His rising from the dead. There are no other religions that claim that their founder rose from the dead. There have been attacks from all sides and from all earthly measures this whole Christian thing should have dissolved long ago. But here it is, alive and well.

But the bottom line is that reasons only go so far. We must ask for the gift of faith and once receiving it we must nurture it constantly.

BOB

Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: theophan] #315378
03/14/09 11:23 PM
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Alice Offline OP
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Alice  Offline OP
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Back to topic, I read somewhere in the Orthodox Study Bible that this means that we should not seek our security from the world, but from Jesus.

I think it also means what another poster here said that following Jesus does not ensure an easy life...

Perhaps in these financial times, in a society which has always stressed financial security, yet where so many have lost their security in the form of employment and life savings in stock market accounts, we need to remember this.

Lord Jesus Christ we put our trust in You!

Alice


Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Epiphanius] #315408
03/15/09 08:30 AM
03/15/09 08:30 AM
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Meriden, CT
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Ray Kaliss Offline
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Ray Kaliss  Offline
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius


I think that qualifies a a 'good reason.'


Peace,
Deacon Richard


In re-reading your response - it is packed with more wisdom than I at first noticed.

So is your's Bob.

I treasure you both.

-ray


Re: QUESTION re: Matthew 8:20 [Re: Alice] #315410
03/15/09 08:57 AM
03/15/09 08:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 510
Meriden, CT
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Ray Kaliss Offline
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Ray Kaliss  Offline
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>Back to topic,

Perhaps I should not have dove into the waters so deeply. smile

Quote

I think it also means what another poster here said that following Jesus does not ensure an easy life...


I can agree with that.

Ultimately ... what is left when all other reasons to follow Christ fall away .. is that somewhere deep inside we fell compelled by a palpable friendship that we have with him. A friendship rooted in conscience. And that is the good reason.

I for one have gotten a lot from this thread and the responses.

Peace to you Alice.
-ray


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