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Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! #315481
03/16/09 06:42 AM
03/16/09 06:42 AM
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Pittsburgh, PA
Ung-Certez Offline OP
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Ung-Certez  Offline OP
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It never ceases to amaze me how the "Sui Juris Byzantine Metropolitan Church in America" has created new rubrics for the Third Sunday of the Great Fast. No longer is it "chic" to come forth after the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great (make that the abridged version of St. Basil liturgy) and venerate the Holy Cross of Christ. Simply amazing. At least I can attend any ACROD church next Sunday in order to have a "traditional" Veneration of the Cross Sunday and they are directly under the "Helenic" Ecumenical Exarchate! mad mad mad

Krestu Tvojemu poklanajemsja Vladyko,
i svjatoje voskresenije Tvoje slavim. (x3 with prostrations)

U-C

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Ung-Certez] #315486
03/16/09 07:52 AM
03/16/09 07:52 AM
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Posts: 1,231
Rocky Hill, CT
John K Offline
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What do you mean? Was the cross removed from the tetrapod after the D/L? Isn't it supposed to remain there all week?

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: John K] #315492
03/16/09 08:46 AM
03/16/09 08:46 AM
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Pittsburgh, PA
Ung-Certez Offline OP
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Ung-Certez  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by John K
What do you mean? Was the cross removed from the tetrapod after the D/L? Isn't it supposed to remain there all week?


No, the Holy Cross was placed on the Tetrapod and the serving priest along with the Cantor and the congregation did sing "Krestu Tvoje" (instead of Holy God) at the proper moment in the St. Basil liturgy, but by the received Ruthenian Recension, the Holy Cross IS ALSO VENERATED A SECOND TIME AT THE END OF THE ST. BASIL LITURGY (the faithful come forth, make a profound bow and then kiss the Holy Cross). Ask any member of the Ukrainian or ACROD Church (who also use the South-West-Rus' Recension of the Constantinopolitan Partiucular Church tradition) if they do indeed venerate the Holy Cross a second time at the conclusion of the St. Basil the Great Divine Liturgy on the Third Sunday of the Great Fast. I'm positive that they still follow this particular nuance of the "Ruthenian Recension"!

U-C

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Ung-Certez] #315501
03/16/09 09:35 AM
03/16/09 09:35 AM
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Washington, PA
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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U-C,

My parish has never done a second veneration. Of course nothing is stopping anybody from venerating the Cross a second time after Liturgy as I am sure you were not.

Of course not prostrating oneself after receiving Holy Communion has everything to do with to do with orthopraxis and little to do with Hellenization other than perhaps Greeks and Melkites have maintained correct practice.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #315503
03/16/09 09:53 AM
03/16/09 09:53 AM
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Pittsburgh, PA
Ung-Certez Offline OP
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Ung-Certez  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
U-C,

My parish has never done a second veneration. Of course nothing is stopping anybody from venerating the Cross a second time after Liturgy as I am sure you were not.

Of course not prostrating oneself after receiving Holy Communion has everything to do with to do with orthopraxis and little to do with Hellenization other than perhaps Greeks and Melkites have maintained correct practice.


Every indigenous Ruthenian parish in Pennsylvannia that I ever attended (in all of my 40-some years attending) has always venerated the Holy Cross at the end of the liturgy the enire week, including after the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts. No, this is a "new" invention since the promugation of the RDL in 2007. Thank God I know which traditional Ruthenian parishes still honor the received "Ruthenian Recension". I pity "the powers in charge" who go out of their way to abridge the received "Ruthenian Recension", as it only infuriates the faithful!

U-C mad


Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Ung-Certez] #315506
03/16/09 10:10 AM
03/16/09 10:10 AM
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Posts: 4,145
Washington, PA
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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U-C,

Well you haven't been to St. Michael's in Canonsburg then have you? I've been at St. Michael's since 1987 and we have not done this. And we are an indigenous Ruthenian parish. Again who is stopping you from venerating the Cross a second time?

You are also confusing a local Ruthenian tradition with the Typicon. The Typicon prescribes the veneration of the Cross after the Great Doxology at Matins on Sunday and at the First Hour Mon-Fri of the week following. Fr. David's Typicon suggests in parish use it be done before Liturgy of the Presanctified.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #315508
03/16/09 10:48 AM
03/16/09 10:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
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Pittsburgh, PA
Ung-Certez Offline OP
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Ung-Certez  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
U-C,

Well you haven't been to St. Michael's in Canonsburg then have you? I've been at St. Michael's since 1987 and we have not done this. And we are an indigenous Ruthenian parish. Again who is stopping you from venerating the Cross a second time?

You are also confusing a local Ruthenian tradition with the Typicon. The Typicon prescribes the veneration of the Cross after the Great Doxology at Matins on Sunday and at the First Hour Mon-Fri of the week following. Fr. David's Typicon suggests in parish use it be done before Liturgy of the Presanctified.

Fr. Deacon Lance





Fr. Joseph in Canonsburg grew up in the St. Mary parish in Johnstown and they never kept the tradition of using a Tetrapod, so that doesn't surprise me that Canonsburg doesn't do the second veneration of the Holy Cross on the Third Sunday of the Great Fast and on the Feast of Exaltation of the Holy Cross on Septempber 14th.

I also grew up in a parish that didn't keep the tetrapod tradition. But come the Third Sunday of the Great Fast and on September 14th, my pastor would put up a Tetrapod and WE DID VENERATE THE HOLY CROSS A SECOND TIME after the Divine Liturgy. At my surrogate parish in Monroeville, we do venerate the Holy Cross a second time after every service for the week following the Third Sunday of the Great Fast and following the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross.

Maybe we need to poll all of the indigenous Ruthenians parishes and see how they have celebrated the Veneration and Exaltation of the Holy Cross over the last 50 years to see exactly what has been the perceived "Ruthenian Recension"?

U-C

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Ung-Certez] #315509
03/16/09 11:03 AM
03/16/09 11:03 AM
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Herbigny Offline
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dear U-C:

1st the Faithful venerate the Cross at the beginning of the Liturgy
and then formally again at the end? (is that part of them coming up for the Antidoron?

Herb

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Herbigny] #315510
03/16/09 11:05 AM
03/16/09 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Herbigny
dear U-C:

1st the Faithful venerate the Cross at the beginning of the Liturgy
and then formally again at the end? (is that part of them coming up for the Antidoron?

Herb


That's when we did it.

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Byzantine TX] #315518
03/16/09 11:55 AM
03/16/09 11:55 AM
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Rocky Hill, CT
John K Offline
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My former GC parish (founded 1900) did not venerate the Cross a second time at the end of the DL, unless of course you count venerating it on the way to Communion.

Is there a rubric in the new version of the DL that says you should not venerate the cross after the DL?

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: John K] #315522
03/16/09 12:28 PM
03/16/09 12:28 PM
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Pittsburgh, PA
Ung-Certez Offline OP
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Ung-Certez  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by John K
My former GC parish (founded 1900) did not venerate the Cross a second time at the end of the DL, unless of course you count venerating it on the way to Communion.

Is there a rubric in the new version of the DL that says you should not venerate the cross after the DL?


That's what I'd like to know as well.

U-C

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Ung-Certez] #315540
03/16/09 04:06 PM
03/16/09 04:06 PM
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Rocky Hill, CT
John K Offline
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I am still confused. Is this what happened at the parish that you attended yesterday or many parishes that you are hearing about from others? Last year there was a veneration after the DL and this year there was not?

As I said, I never experienced a second veneration after the DL or Presanctified at my former GC parish so it certainly was not a tradition here in CT.

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: John K] #315542
03/16/09 04:34 PM
03/16/09 04:34 PM
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Washington, PA
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Originally Posted by John K
Is there a rubric in the new version of the DL that says you should not venerate the cross after the DL?


No. Nor was there a rubric that said you should. The rubric actually calls for the veneration of the Cross to take place at Matins after the Great Doxology. So if Matins is not served it makes the most sense to hold the first veneration before Liturgy.

What U-C describes is a local custom not an actual rubric, much like the use of the troica, or singing "Having suffered..." after services during the Great Fast, that as shown was not used by all parishes nor all priests.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #315544
03/16/09 04:48 PM
03/16/09 04:48 PM
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Pittsburgh, PA
Ung-Certez Offline OP
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Ung-Certez  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by John K
Is there a rubric in the new version of the DL that says you should not venerate the cross after the DL?


No. Nor was there a rubric that said you should. The rubric actually calls for the veneration of the Cross to take place at Matins after the Great Doxology. So if Matins is not served it makes the most sense to hold the first veneration before Liturgy.

What U-C describes is a local custom not an actual rubric, much like the use of the troica, or singing "Having suffered..." after services during the Great Fast, that as shown was not used by all parishes nor all priests.

Fr. Deacon Lance


But if most parishes have this custom (and we would have to poll the parishes as was mentioned before), is it not part of the received "Ruthenian Recension", such as the case with the singing of "Preterp'yvyj Za Nas" hymn (three times w/prostrations) after weekly lenten services?

Again, check with the Ukrainian Churches and the ACROD parishes as well and I'm sure they do it. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, is it not a duck??? confused

U-C

Re: Newly-created Hellenicized Ruthenian Rubrics, WHEN WILL IT STOP!! [Re: Ung-Certez] #315545
03/16/09 04:55 PM
03/16/09 04:55 PM
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Washington, PA
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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U-C,

No rubrics are the directions printed in red ink in our official books. Anything else is a custom no matter how long it has been done or how many parishes do it.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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