Well, what's said has been said. The Greek Orthodox do not consider the Western Rite Orthodox to be "Orthodox". It is a sad reality but that's what they think of Western Rite Orthodox. At present, apart from Antioch, only Moscow recognises the Western Rite.

The difference is that the "Western Rite" used by the Antiochenes in the Philippines is the Novus Ordo celebrated ad populum, with all the typical Filipino liturgical abuses (no alb under the chasuble, stole over chasuble, etc.). It doesn't help that many of the new Antiochene priests are former vagantes. Being a Filipino myself, and being personally familiar with the vagante "church" from which some of the brand-new Antiochenes come from, the only thing I can say is that I hope the Patriarchate of Antioch knows what it is getting into.

I've spoken with some of faithful of the Greek Orthodox Exarchate in the Philippines and they absolutely reject the canonicity of the Philippine Antiochenes, not even recognizing them as Orthodox. At least one Antiochene who chose to go over to the Greek Orthodox Exarchate was chrismated again.

The Archdiocese here in Australia has the reputation of taking on anyone. It is no surprise to hear of clergy moving on to other juristictions once they realise what is happening in the Archdiocese. The Archbishop here was formerly in the USA.

Weren't they chrismated into the Antiochian church? Or did I misread something?

What I was told is that the Greeks judged the manner of chrismating that the Filipino Antiochenes are using, to be incorrect and not in accordance with the canons.

Please remember that the Filipino Antiochenes don't use the Byzantine Rite, but the Novus Ordo and its associated liturgical books.

Hello

Is there any official statement by the Antiochian Church approving the celebration of the Novus Ordo Missae as a legitimate rite for Orthodox Use?

In the USA they did establish a Vicariate and liturgical books and they were all reviewed by the AOC. Both the St Gregory (Tridentine) and St. Tykon (Anglican) liturgies were corrected and approved.

This is why I find this hard to believe. I mean, I would understand it but from what you have told us, this reception of convert groups was done in a very disorganized way, without a serious programme by stages, etc. as the USA WR Vicariate does when they receive converts.

Is there more information On Line about this?

Have a great day.

Indeed this sounds joyful, albeit disturbing in some way. "Lex orandi, lex credendi" is the way the Church and the Novus Ordo struggles to live up to being the law of belief.

However, it can, because there is a possibility that Metropolitan PAUL may have consulted the Western Rite priests in his diocese to do this. Phillipines is not the only country under the Australian diocese that is Western Rite. There is a Western Rite mission in Melbourne and there are a few in New Zealand. In fact, Met. PAUL's vicar in New Zealand does celebrate the Western Rite.

Nevertheless, I do believe that Met PAUL must have studied everything in detail before accepting them. That the Antiochians receive just about anyone is very true, but I doubt that they'd give in to much. The Novus Ordo is possibly a transitional form for the Philipino Antiochians at the moment, so we'll leave it as it is. I do believe that Met Paul also has made the necessary changes to the Novus Ordo to meet Orthodox doctrinal requirements, so for now, we shall not discuss this any further. Any enquiries regarding this should be sent to the good bishop himself for explanation.

That's very sad.. You might as well have this thread locked

Nope, we shouldn't have this thread locked. But if we're not going to be positive and pray for our brothers and sisters, we might as well not discuss this. I admit that it looks peculiar... I mean, I did not expect what I saw in the videos from an Orthodox Church, but it had to happen. I would say therefore, instead of labelling them and saying all kinds of things, or even taking into consideration what other Christians say about them, they should ask the bishop why he did what he did. He is accountable to his flock. Let's see what he says.

Well then, let's not elaborate further, because we would NOT want to do that to our beloved in Christ, Father Serge!

Alice

Is this the official stand of the Greek Orthodox Exarchate in the Philippines? Such statement can not be verified because it is nowhere to be found in the official website of the Orthodox Metropolitanate of Hong Kong and South East Asia.

Dear Alice,

Please accept my appreciative thanks - arthritis is bad enough; I am not in need of a heart attack!

But I wonder . . . if this bizarre group celebrates "Qurbono" and has married bishops, it seems on the face of it wildly unlikely that they really can be regarded as canonical Orthodox. It is just possible that they are connected with one of the offshoots of the Mar Thoma Churches in India.

Fr. Serge

I'd like to clarify that the group I was describing is a vagante Church from which some of the Antiochenes originally came from. Please refer to my OP.

I've been to this vagante Church's headquarters and I strongly doubt that they have any real ties with any Syrian or Assyrian Church. Their "Qurbono" is a deeply inculturated mess and when I spoke to their Carmelite abbot (!) he didn't even know the proper distinctions between the Syrian Orthodox and the Church of the East.

Kabayan:

Just because something isn't in a website doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. That is common sense.

I have the following as the basis for my assertions:

1) Personal conversations with some of the Greek Orthodox lay faithful

2) There is an interesting thread in the Orthodox Christianity Forum that contains a long debate between the followers of the Greek and Antiochene Orthodox churches in the Philippines. In this thread, there is a testimony from one of the former Antiochenes who went over to the Greek Exarchate and was (re) chrismated.

Prior to this chaos, there was an attempt in 2007 to set up an Antiochene jurisdiction in the Philippines. I even struck up an online and "texting" friendship with the "Father Dmitri" who led the attempt. An apparently kind and accomodating man, with a lot of critical things to say about the Greeks. All of a sudden, he disappeared from the scene; I later found out that he had suddenly left the Philippines.

They have a "Carmelite abbot"!? What's that?

Carmelites are mendicant friars. Most of them (the barefoot or Discalced Carmelites) won't even wear shoes, let alone mitres!

Still, if these deeply confused people can be brought to some kind of canonical order, I guess it may count as a minor miracle.