So the Pope will serve Vespers in a Greek-Catholic cathedral during his Holy Land visit - excellent (and an obvious improvement on John Paul II's visit). I look forward to watching the service.

Fr. Serge

I hope the service will be made available here:

http://www.benedictxvi.tv/

Will it be in byzantine rite or roman?

I'd love to see the Pontiff celebrate Vespers according to the Byzantine Rite, but I assume it will be according to the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

Alexis

Alexis,

Why do you assume so? Since it is a Melkite Greek-Catholic cathedral, I would assume that it would be in the Melkite Greek-Catholic rite.

In fact, from what I have learnt about our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, and his profound love of the liturgy, I think it is very likely that his Holiness would want to preside at Vespers in the Melkite Greek-Catholic rite.

But since only the place and not the rite has been announced, we don't know yet. However, I do look forward to finding out!

Technically, while the Pope's normative rite is the Latin Rite, he has the canonical power to be multi-ritual. I'd love to see him follow in JPII's footsteps and celebrate the Byzantine Rite.

I can't imagine it being in anything other than the Byzantine Rite. At the risk of sounding like a papolator, this is Benedict XVI we're talking about.

Peace and God bless!

I would also presume that it will be according to the Byzantine Rite. It states that he is presiding, not celebrating, therefore I assume he'll be sitting in a place of prestige somewhere.

Well I certainly would love to be wrong!

Alexis

You don't sound like a papolator, but you do risk sounding like a papabenedictosextodecimolator. May I join you in the club?

Sounds like fun. Can we arrange for this club to serve Viennese pastries?

Fr. Serge

After all, sometimes a pastry is just a pastry!

hawk

Yes, Fr. Serge, I think there should be choice of both Danish and Viennese pastries

The Pope does will celebrate in the Byzantine rite!

Subdeacon Matta of Australia commented with me that he is helping out some Melkites in Jordan with English liturgical texts, in preparation for the Pope's visit there in May.

Excellent news

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Outstanding news, Philippe!

LOL!!! There has to be a way for Fr. Serge to do standu...'Evangelization Through Comedy' - maybe he can sell it to his bishop?

His Grace is not opposed to Viennese pastry.

Fr. Serge

But, in Jordan, one should not seek Viennese pastries, but rather "mafrouka"--a paste of almonds, sugar, and butter heated and served under a thick layer of cream, and then all covered in pieces of pistachio.

A speciality of Jordan; once tried, always sought.

Aleppo offers a wonderful soft pastry stuffed with pistachios.

Fr. Serge

STOP THIS RIGHT NOW !!

These mouthwatering descriptions are sheer cruelty

Ah, yes! A mutual friend asked, a few years back, that I find out the name of those - and I promised to do so. Must check with a Syrian friend on that

Would the Pope wear byzantine or Latin Vestments

The Pope wears his own vestments when presiding or celebrating the various non Latin Rite liturgies. It is normal for clergy to wear their own Rite's vestments on such occasions.

ah okay.... thanks for the claification

A chara dhil,

When you get the recipe for those pistachio pastries from Aleppo, please share it with me!

re vestments: Pope John Paul II had a set of Byzantine vestments made to fit him - then the nuisances in the Curia would not let him wear them!

Fr. Serge

Father Bless!!
Christ has Risen !!!

What a shame! When did John Paul II celebrate the divine liturgy ?

The Pope did so a few times during his pontificate.

The vestments were made for the Divine Liturgy in the Sistine Chapel, at which the Pope was the main consecrator of Archbishop (later Patriarch) Miroslav-Ivan Liubachivsky.

Unfortunately, by the time that the Pope made it to Ukraine and Romania, he was in no physical shape to celebrate the Chrysostom Liturgy in public.

Fr. Serge

Here are photos of one Divine Liturgy celebrated by Pope John Paul II.

http://easterncatholichymns.homestead.com/popemass.html

http://easterncatholichymns.homestead.com/popemass2.html

Thank you for these butiful photos.

great photos of the late Pope !

sory for the last post beautiful

Wonderful to see this. I pray that we will have photos of Benedict XVI also to add to the collections.

PAX
Kathleen Elsie

Pope will be in Jordan soon in May !!!

Please pray i will be able to go there... Thank you:)

If you manage to go - please take a camera with you and let us see your piccies

sure sure i will :D:D:D

I know he has never left us, it seems like we just saw him yesterday with all his vim, vigor, and vitality. No matter the age, he was always young at heart. Thanks JPII

These were nice photos. Thank you.

The Vatican has released the Missal for the Holy Father's visit to the Holy Land. "Evening Prayer" at the Melkite Cathedral is on page 29 of the PDF:

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/libretti/2009/MessaleTerraSanta.pdf

I noticed quite a few liberties were taken with the structure and content of this Vespers service (although I wonder if some of the awkwardness is due to poor English translations and the fact that I don't read Arabic ).

Dave

Here is another one from 1991 when His Holiness celebrated an outdoor Divine Liturgy at Mariapocs in Hungary.



It is taken from an article on the Marian shrine at Mariapocs from the CNEWA website: http://www.cnewa.org/mag-article-bodypg-us.aspx?articleID=770

Chtec
Thanks for that link

On a very quick look a few things have sort of jumped out at me

Normally at 'big' Papal Masses in Rome [ Easter etc ] a 'Greek' Deacon will also Chant the Gospel - does anyone know if it is happening here ? There is a hint of it at one place

Page 134 - Gethsemane



Those words are not usually said [ as far as I can remember ] at the start of the Gosple Reading - even when read by a Deacon - so is this an Eastern Deacon ?

There is also the Introduction to the Gospel in the Celebration in Bethlehem [page 171]


There is also a hint of this at the Eucharistic Celebration in Nazareth - page 210


Any comments anyone ?

I think that I shall be better off remaining at home! That Vesperal pastiche is downright offensive.

Fr. Serge

OK - now that's two commenting unfavourably on the Vespers

Since I will openly confess that I can't really remember the last time I was at Vespers [ not ever served in Edinburgh to my knowledge ] and then it was in Greek and I was spectacularly 'lost ' language wise, would someone please explain how this version is at odds ?

Is this starting to approach the "I'll do it MY way " practice again ?

Without having the text of Orthodox Vespers in front of me and working solely from memory (I sing Vespers twice a week), the Melkite service looks much the same until the "Petitions," which look like Vatican II PC "Let's write our own litany" nonsense, and everything up to the Paschal Troparion (Christ is risen from the dead!)

I have no clue what "Maronite Song" might be.

As I've said in a previous post, I don't read Arabic, so perhaps one of our Arabic readers can fill in some of the gaps and correct what I assume are bad/incorrect English translations.

That being said, Vespers seems to start off all right: the Entrance of the Pope during "The Angel Cried", opening doxology (and I will presume that the English is a mistake and the Arabic is either "Blessed is our God" or "Glory to the holy, consubstantial..."), Paschal troparion, Psalm 103, Great Litany, and the Lamp-Lighting Psalms. So far, so good. The placement of the Paschal Stichera *here* rather than at the Aposticha where they would belong is a bit unusual.

In the English text, they don't include any dogmaticon/theotokion after the "Glory"; I don't know if the Arabic text is "Joyful light" or a theotokion.

After "Joyful light", this is where things get messy. They have a "hymn" marked 1, 2, 3 in Arabic. Is it the prokeimenon or something else? Unless "The Song of the Message" is the prokeimenon?

The single Scripture reading that follows is a bit of an intrusion outside of Lenten or festal Vespers, but understandable given the desire for a homily.

The Maronite Song is, of course, not part of Byzantine Vespers.

Following the homily, there is a litany consisting entirely of special petitions. The usual "Grant us this evening, O Lord", Vesperal litanies, Aposticha, Prayer of Simeon and Trisagion prayers are absent (at least in English)

I don't know what the "Prayer of Consecration" is--maybe someone else is familiar with it.

They conclude Vespers with the troparia of St. Benedict and of Pentecost--no doubt in honor of the Holy Father.

So, first half of Vespers=Good. Second half=confusing.

Dave

Thanks for this very interesting analysis!


"The Angel told the Filled of Grace Lady..." is just a bad English translation of the Arabic. Of course it should say "The Angel cried to the Lady Full of Grace..."


The English is indeed a mistake. The Arabic has "Blessed is our God..."

There is something missing in the English translation after "Glory be to the Father..." The Arabic text continues with "Today is the day of the Resurrection..." and "Christ is risen from the dead...".


This is where things get difficult and I need to find my Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic
The first verse of the three verses of the "hymn" can be translated something like this:

I sent you out by my strength,
I anointed you to my service,
I aided you with my power,
I lavished you with my grace.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?


The Arabic text given under "The Song of the Message" is simply "Let us be attentive." Unless there is some test missing here in both languages, I would suggest that "The Song of the Message" is bad English and that what is really meant here is "The Chanting of the Epistle." (The Arabic word risala can mean both "message" and "epistle.")



The program refers to "Celebration of Vespers with priests, men and women religious, seminarians and ecclesial movements" (source). Perhaps this explains the "Prayer of Consecration" with its reference to "a life of consecrated celibacy."



I guess we now have the answer to the question whether the celebration will be in the Byzantine rite or the Roman rite. Apparently the first part of the service will follow the Byzantine rite of Vespers, while the second part will have some elements from the Maronite and Roman rites.

Why can't they just DO vespers if that's what this purports to be? It's turned into a "prayer service for the evening," rather than evening prayer in the Greek Catholic rite.

That's half the problem with these things--nothing is ever good enough the way it is and has to be adjusted, tinkered with, given a theme, watered-down, and muddled until it becomes a photo op, or a "see how wonderful we are" session, instead of a service which worships and praises God. The pope knows where he is and the people know he is there too. Leave the fawning and niceties outside the door of the church and just pray.

John K,

I share your reaction to some extent. To my mind it would have been better to simply celebrate Greek Melkite Vespers. The Holy Father could then have given a sermon at the end, followed by the "Prayer of Consecration" if desired.

I sense a certain amount of political correctness in the way this service has been planned. We have to show our "diversity" and everyone has to "feel included," therefore you have to have a little bit of something for everyone.

Still, hopefully this will be a beautiful and grace-filled moment of prayer for everyone present.

Wouldn't the Pope of Rome, Latin Rite by training, show diversity in the Church by celebrating a proper Byzantine service? (My thought process after reading your post, just a rhetorical question).

I have to agree with John K and Latin Catholic. Just leave well enough alone, for heaven's sake.

Alexis

Exactly!

Well, I was involved in providing English texts to our Arabic brethren in Jordan for this Vespers service.

It looks like they didn't ask for everything they needed, though, as there as some rather strange translations of things: e.g. "Christ is risen" is not in the translation we use in the Melkite Church in English.

In the beginning, the text alternates between Arabic and English; thus you'll see some things missing in English.

Yes, the Arabic after the Hymn to the Evening Light is the Great Prokeimenon.

The Maronite hymn is title: "Let me be a servant in your house, through all the days of my life." I have no idea why it is in there--unless there are many Maronites in the area, who worship closely with the Melkites. This happens a lot, if e.g. the Maronites are a minority and do not have their own church/priest. It may also just be as a way of including them into the whole celebration.

And then, as everyone as already said, the service descends into some sort of Latin para-liturgy based around the Troparion to St Benedict, together with a prayer of consecration to the religious life.

Given all that has been said by the Vatican about the value of rites other than the Latin--and about avoiding liturgical synchretism--I find this mishmash strange.

Interestingly enough, the translations of Psalms 103, 140/141 are those that used to be sung by the Ruthenian Greek Catholics here in the USA. I noticed that right away. As I started reading them, they came right back to me. Are they from the Raya/DeVinck Byzantine prayer book?

Quite honestly, I don't even enjoy watching these Papal liturgies and services as they are so funky and long winded. I don't mind a long service, but let it be long because it's the service and celebrated correctly, not because there are as many blow-hards talking and additions and addendums to make the service "relevant."

Oh well, it's a bit disappointing but there's always going to be something we can criticize

Let's just hope and pray that Pope Benedict may be safe during this visit and that his pilgrimage of peace may bear spiritual fruit!

But the question is still

WHY is the Vatican 'messing about ' with services in this way .

Frankly I can't believe the Pope himself has been closely involved in this, because then I would expect everything to be strictly in accordance with the liturgical books and we might even see His Holiness in Byzantine vestments, which would be very interesting.

However, I think there is some kind of liturgical organizing committee at work here and the word hasn't reached them yet that Pope Benedict XVI is pope now and that he actually wants real liturgy. Everyone should read The Spirit of the Liturgy by one Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. If they did, they would see, among other things, the value of taking part in the liturgical tradition of the Church instead of just trying to make it up as you go along.

It is not very clear who is putting this together for the Papal visit. Is the incorporating of a verses from other traditions represented in the Holy land into the services to reflect the Pope is not just visiting the Melkite community but all Catholics (and others) in the land. Just a thought.

Yes, my guess is that whoever is in charge of this is trying hard to include everyone. Hence the Syriac bishop (episcopus syriacus) who is to chant the Gospel during the Latin-rite Mass in Bethlehem (p. 170). However, this is a fairly small though symbolic interpolation which does not affect the structure of the Latin Mass. With the Vespers in Jordan, on the other hand, it seems to me that the over-all structure of the Greek Melkite service may have been somewhat compromised.

So, what I'm saying is that I'm in favour of a moderate mixing of rites (especially if they are quite traditional, e.g. the chanting of the Gospel by both a Latin and a Greek deacon during some solemn Papal Masses), but I'm not in favour of replacing large chunks of the liturgy of one Church with the liturgy (or para-liturgy!) of another Church.

Pavel

I take your point - but this ' mix and match type thing 'is not made in a sensible way

If we are not told that this is a way of trying to include every tradition into each service - then I fear it's going to , once more , lead to priests doing their own thing again - using these services as a model.

How many RC Priests do know how the Eastern Services are constructed - very few I would think ?

This gives a very bad impression and let's be honest we all know how much Latin Liturgy has suffered in the past - usually put down to 'pastoral sensitivity'

The article states the Pope will celebrate a vespers service in the Melkite Cathedral. It does not state the service will be conducted according to the Melkite or any one church's ritual.
This visit being a historical event, is it that big a deal if pieces are taken from different ritual services and incorporated as one? Would one prefer a different church venue be used for such a service other than the Melkite Cathedral?

Point well taken! It is true this is going to be an historical event, and I don't want to be unduly critical. On the contrary, I hope and pray that this service will be a moment of grace and prayer for all those who participate in it.

However, I think most of us on this forum are keenly interested in liturgical matters, and it seems to me that we do like to make our opinions known

John K: yes, the translations of the psalms are those of Archbishop Raya and Baron de Vinck.

I don't suppose anybody knows when exactly the Vespers will take place and if EWTN is covering it?

"This visit being a historical event, is it that big a deal if pieces are taken from different ritual services and incorporated as one? Would one prefer a different church venue be used for such a service other than the Melkite Cathedral?"

I oppose the admixture of different rites under all circumstances, and so, in theory, does the Catholic Church--otherwise why mandate delatinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches through the promulgation of canons, decrees, encyclicals and pastoral letters going back more than a century? When, for the sake of a photo op, the Holy See creates sui generis rituals that are a pastiche of different rites, it sends a very mixed message to the Eastern Churches, both in and out of communion with Rome. It creates one of those classic "Do as I say, not as I do" situations, doubly unfortunate when the person and institution in question is supposed to represent the focus of unity within the Church by setting an example for all.

Again, to paraphrase that French general, "It is magnificent, but it is not Vespers".

EWTN Schedule for Pope Benedict in the Holy Land

Vespers is on Saturday at 10:30AM ET (live)and again at 6:00PM.

thank you much!

Stuart,

My not being a liturgical scholar nor stickler,(though I do abhor liturgical abuse, which I'm sure more than a few will find this service as being such), I suppose you are correct here. Perhaps they should have labelled this a "Catholic Amalgamated Evening Prayer Service" or something of the like.

I anxiously await the Pope's take on the goings on and I pray the prayers rise to Heaven and be accepted at the foot His Holy Throne nonetheless.

Bill

I am watching the live coverage of the Pope's arrival to Jordan and how cool ! I believe i counted the 5 Catholic patriarchs of the East: Maronite, Syriac, Melkite, Chaldean, and Armenian !

Patriarch Nasrallah Peter- Maronite
Patriarch Ignace Ignace Yousif III-Syriac
Patrirch Emmanuel III-Chaldean
Patriarch Nersos Bedros XIX-Armenian
Patriarch Gregory III- Melkite

I did not see the Coptic Catholic Patriarch Antonios or the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Foud Twal

http://www.gcatholic.com/hierarchy/patriarchs.htm

Looking at this hierarchy chart of Patriarchs, it lists the Armenian and Chaldean Patriarchs as Minor Eastern-rite Patriarch, any reason why?

Giga-Catholic Information is an excellent website and usually very informative, but here I believe they have made a mistake. There is no such thing as a "minor Eastern-rite patriarch." According to canon 59 § 1 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches all patriarchs of Eastern Catholic churches are equal by virtue of the patriarchal dignity (except for a precedence of honor), despite the fact that some patriarchal sees were created later than others.

for any interested in watching the vespers live from Amman, Jordan. It will be shown on EWTN, or www.ewtn.com soon at 10:30 Eastern Time

http://www.ewtn.com/holyland2009/coverage.htm

I hope they also make the video available "on demand" after it has been shown live.

Watching this Vespers makes one realize how well Arabs appreciate pre-planning.

I enjoyed the chanting overall, especially the Lamp-Lighting Psalms (which, I must say, could have been MUCH more rapidly). The one female singer during the Psalms had a lovely voice.

The Polychronion in Greek was a nice touch, too.

Dave

Yes, I too love the Arabic chant! It's wonderful, and very powerful.

My first impression of this service was very favourable. It may not have been exactly according to the rubrics, but what's good enough for Pope Benedict XVI and Patriarch Gregory III is good enough for me.

It was great to see the Holy Father blessing the congregation with the double and triple candles. It didn't seem to have been planned in advance, but his Holiness did it perfectly after a bit of hesitation

I noticed that the two celebrants wore dark red vestments. Is there a particular reason for this colour being used during Eastertide?

I think I recognized the Armenian Catholic, Chaldean, Syriac Catholic and Maronite patriarchs. But who was the rather imposing figure with a great beard sitting at the right hand of Maronite Patriarch Mar Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir?

EWTN has been posting its video coverage under the Video Archive section: http://www.ewtn.com/holyland2009/

Hopefully, the vespers service will be posted soon.

I watched this morning, and was brought to tears of happiness and also of anquish, my spirituality is in competition between East and West...

I believe the "rather imposing" bishop was Melkite Bishop Elias Chacour.

Dave

Rich red vestments for Eastertide is the practice of the Moscow Patriarchate and the Jerusalem Patriarchate (which has jurisdiction over the Orthodox in Jordan)

Papal ceremonies are famous (notorious?) for being unusually slow-paced. And as someone who has been regularly watching live coverage of papal Masses since c. 1993, I have this feeling that papal liturgies have considerably slowed down under Pope Benedict XVI and the new MC, Guido Marini (John Paul II and Piero Marini preferred a somewhat brisker pace)

I missed it because of graduation. Anyone know where to find it online?

Alexis

I must admit I was rather disappointed with "Vespers." Let me list my reasons, just to note all of these issues lie with those who planned the liturgy:
1. The Holy Father and His Beatitude sitting directly in front of the Icon Screen, preventing proper incensation.
2. The lack of a Deacon
3. Somebody should have instructed the Pope how to properly use the cadilla and the trikeria and dikeria
4. The Liturgical abuses of Vespers, particularly the Latin custom of Petitions and the introduction of all things foreign to the Byzantine Rite, including musical instruments
5. The commentator
6. The general lack of decorum and reverence of the faithful while in the Holy Temple, particularly the chanting.

I'm sure I could go on, but those were my gut reactions.

I think it would have been best if His Beatitude, Patriarch Gregory III, would have celebrated a true Hierarchical Vespers Service with the Holy Father in attendance or if they so chose, presiding.

For those who may not have understood the Arabic or French ...

The prayers started with the Hirmos of the 9th Ode of Pascha (Shine, Shine O New Jerusalem) being sung just after the Pope reached his throne. Not really Vespers, but still one of the chants that sets the tone of Paschaltide.

Really disappointing to hear that the commentator wasn't even prepared enough to recognise our Patriarch. And he seemed to make up a lot of rubbish about other things as well.

The English text of the Patriarch's welcome speech is rather rough; I thought it had come from an Arabic original. The actual speech (largely in French) was much more succinct and natural, however.

The Bible offered to him by the Bible Society looked bizarrely enough just like the Jerusalem Bible in Arabic--at least its cover is the same!

I just finished watching it; the experience was upsetting.

4. The Liturgical abuses of Vespers, particularly the Latin custom of Petitions and the introduction of all things foreign to the Byzantine Rite, including musical instruments

Liturgical intrusions, I should say. What in thunder were Maronite hymns, of all things, doing in a Melchite Vespers service?! Native Jordanian Maronites do not even exist, or if they do, their numbers are miniscule.

Also upsetting was not hearing the voice of Father Nabil Had'daad (whom the E.W.T.N. announcer mistakenly referred to as Father David during the welcome at the mosque), the priest who was carrying the Gospel Book and who probably has the best voice (a strong baritone) from amongst all the priests of the eparchy.

If anybody ever visits Amman, he should attend Father Nabil's celebration of the Divine Liturgy in his small but charmingly traditional parish church in Jabal il-Weibdeh (Weibdeh Mountain). He takes his time and chants well. Also, if he is still there, you will also find a young man who chants for Father Nabil and has a fine voice. The fellow is an Iraqi refugee, and so a Chaldaean. Nonetheless, he has a masterful command of Byzantine chant that you would not expect from somebody who doesn't come from that tradition.

A humorous note: If anyone has watched Where in the World is Osama Bin Ladin, he is the priest Morgan Spurlock interviews in Amman. Father probably thought this was for a serious documentary. In the film, he is again a victim of mistaken identity and identified as a Greek Orthodox priest.

Erie Byz,

As has been established on this thread, this was not a Byzantine Vespers service. It was an odd amalgam, to be sure, but since it never pretended to be Byzantine Vespers it shouldn't be held to that standard.

How did the Holy Father use the trikeria and dikeria improperly?

Can someone enlighten about the faithful's lack of decorum in the temple? Can this service be viewed online?

Alexis

Alexis the faithful all most mobed the Holy Father when he entered the Church.

Go here to the 2:00 mark to see him. Jordan having a more traditional, conservative atmosphere explains why Father Nabil is one of the few priests you see wearing their clerical robes.

I don't think he used them improperly. Rather, it just seemed a bit improvised. (You could see the Greek and Latin masters of ceremonies sticking their heads together a minute before.) The trikeria and dikeria were offered to the Holy Father, who blessed them, but didn't take them. Then, it dawned on him that he should actually take them and bless the people with them, which he did, to huge applause!

So, there was simply a moment of hesitation, not anything improper, as far as I can tell. Really, it was rather charming and touching, in a slightly disorganized sort of way

Alexis,

I think the Vatican was trying to portray it is Byzantine Vespers, otherwise why would it be in a Melkite Cathedral, beginning much the same as a tradition Vespers liturgy, with the priests adding the phelonia before the Entrance?

As mentioned by someone else he appeared rather confused when they were presented to him, it took quite a while for him to realize what he needed to do.

As for the decorum, it was mentioned that they essentially "mobbed" him, but also I do not think cheers and chanting his name during part of the service or while in Temple are appropriate.

Ed

Erie Byz the Fact that the Holy Father did not preside should tell you somthing and from what I remember there were deacons you see one swinging a censer during the entrance procession.

David

Altar Server, the Pope "presided" in a way similar to the way normal way an Eastern Bishop would--i.e., from the throne.

I noticed a sub-deacon, but not a deacon. The Ektene (Litany of Peace) was chanted by a priest.

The Pope did use the "zicari" and "trikari"(as we say in Arabic) improperly. Although he started more or less correctly, uniting both (but not elevating them sufficiently high), he didn`t proceed in alternating them. The Pope, instead, separated one from another extremely, as to do an arm of a cross (similarly to a Maronite blessing with the holy gifts, I think).

It is important to say, as I think no one has said it until now, that the Pope entered the Cathedral with the Byzantine episcopal staff, whose "flag" (pardon, what is the name?) had the Patriarch`s coat of arms in itself printed. After the office, our Patriarch gave the staff to Benedict XVI as a gift (by the way, the Archbishop of Jordania, Msgr Yasser Ayach, gave to him an stunning icon of St Peter and St Paul and a Bible in Arabic).

In spite of the differences to the original rite, I liked very much to watch our Pope celebrating a Byzantine office in a Melkite Church. And it will serve as an strong argument to convince ignorant people of the reality of the Eastern Churches.

And it was remarkably to me to watch and understand a some-lenghtly discourse of our Patriarch (which was almost in French), being still more moved by his vivacity, love and youthness.

Unfortunately, the transmission of "Tele Lumière" (a famous and wonderful Arabic Christian channel) was without the audio of the Church almost in the entirety of the celebration, having only the voice of the narrator (at least it was what happened at my granfather`s house, where I went to watch the Vespers). I expect it hadn`t happened to the other people, specially those in the Middle East. But, thank God, I had the idea to turn on the computer and follow the audio through the site of "Canção Nova", a Brazilian Catholic channel, while I stayed with the better image of "Tele Lumière".

No idea why HH had preside from where he was in front of the Iconostas. Never seen this before anywhere. The commentator had no idea who was doing the welcome in the cathedral and kept referring to various bishops as "ordinaries". Also had no idea of the history of the Kingdom and just made things up in regard to why the First welcome was given in French and then had no explanation why the second speaker used English.

Last evening I watched the Pope celebrating Vespers in Amman, Jordan. Perhaps you all can clear something up for me. He was celebrating it in a Greek Melkite Church, which from all appearances seemed to be Orthodox - the chanting (although definitely mid-Eastern), their Priests wore the same type of robes and head coverings, and it appeared to me that they crossed themselves as do Orthodox - from right to left. They mentioned during the broadcast that they were in full Communion with the West.
Could someone please shed some light on this? Are they Catholic or Orthodox? And, is this another indicator of the possible reunification of the West and the East?
Many thanks ....
abby
<*)))><

OK, I see.

It seems pretty clear that this part of the liturgy had not been rehearsed in advance. In a way, it was interesting and touching to see how the Pope dealt with an unfamiliar situation. When he celebrates the Latin rite, which he knows intimately, he is always completely in control, but here he seemed a bit lost for a moment, before managing to improvise something


Really wonderful gifts!


So many Western Catholics have no idea that the Eastern Catholic Churches even exist or what they mean. Many people also have no idea that there are Arab Christians! Hopefully this three-day visit by the Pope to Jordan will help raise the awareness of Western Christians with regard to both the Eastern Catholic Churches and our Arab Christian brethren.


Yes, I too was struck by his Beatitude's energy and vivacity!


I think that for a service like this there shouldn't be too much commentary, because it distracts from what is going on. And of course the commentator should be an expert who knows what he is talking about!

Dear Abby,

I think you said somewhere on the forum that you are a Western-rite Antiochian Orthodox. Just as there are Western-rite Orthodox who use a Western liturgy, there are also Eastern-rite Catholics who use different Eastern liturgies: Armenian, Byzantine, Chaldean, Coptic, Ethiopic, Maronite, Syriac, and so on.

The Eastern Catholics form their own Eastern Catholic Churches with their own Bishops and Patriarchs, all in full communion with the Pope.

Thus, for example, at the beginning of Vespers, Pope Benedict was welcomed first in French by the Greek Melkite Patriarch Gregory III (Lahham) of Antioch and all the East, of Alexandria and of Jerusalem. The Pope was then welcomed in English by the Greek Melkite Archbishop Yasser (Ayyash) of Petra and Philadelphia (Amman, Jordan).

Also present during Vespers were the patriarchs of four other Eastern Catholic Churches (Armenian Catholic, Chaldean, Maronite and Syriac Catholic).

The Greek Melkite Church in the United States is led by Archbishop Cyril (Bustros), Bishop of Newton, Massachusetts.

In the Middle East, relations between Greek Melkite Catholics and Antiochian Orthodox generally seem to be very warm and friendly. In other places, unfortunately, there are more tensions between Orthodox and Eastern Catholics, for example in Ukraine.

In fact, surprisingly many Catholics and Orthodox know very little about the Eastern Catholic Churches. I think one of the aims of the Byzcath forum is to make it possible for more people to learn about the Eastern Churches in general and the Eastern Catholic Churches in particular.

A good website with extensive information on all the different Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, is the website of CNEWA (the Catholic Near East Welfare Association): http://www.cnewa.org/generalpg-verus.aspx?pageID=182

My guess is that they moved the bishop's stall from the side of the nave to in front of the iconostas so that everyone in the congregation could see the Pope during the service.

Dave

Actually, it might be a local custom to have the bishop's throne in this place. I have seen a similar arrangement in the Melkite Cathedral in Damascus during a Divine Liturgy with Patriarch Maximos V of blessed memory.

Latic Catholic gave you some good general information on the various Eastern Catholic Churches, but since you're Antiochian yourself it might be good to know a bit more about the Melkite Church specifically.

The Antiochian Orthodox Church and the Melkite Church split in 1724, when the Patriarch of Antioch and most of the Synod of Bishops entered Communion with Rome, while some Bishops decided to stay with Constantinople. Those who entered Communion with Rome became known as the Melkite Church (which was the name of the Church of Antioch since before that time), and those who stayed with Constantinople became generally known as the Antiochian Orthodox Church. In the native lands of the Middle East, however, they are typically known as "Roum Catolic" for the Melkites, and "Roum Ortodox" for the Antiochians.

We share the same Liturgy, Vestments, and theology, but the Melkite Church is obviously with Rome and therefore Catholic, while the Antiochian Church is with the Eastern Orthodox Churches. There is often a LOT of crossover between the Melkites and Middle-Eastern Antiochians, however, and on "ground level" there is often little distinction made. Many of the members of my Melkite parish, for example, are actually Antiochian Orthodox (including several members of the Parish Council). There is a lot of intermarriage, and those from one Church will often go to the other if there is none of their own in the area (this includes those cases where there may be other Catholic or Orthodox Churches nearby; many times the Melkites and Antiochians will attend eachother's parishes rather than go to a Roman or Russian Orthodox church for example). This isn't the "rule", but it's common enough to be recognized as a fairly regular practice.

Hope that helps!

Peace and God bless!

Thank you!

Antiochian Orthodox on a Catholic church's parish council? That's something I've never heard of before!

I agree with the statements that the faithful should refrain from chanting the Pope's name and applauding during a service. I DID see pictures where people were literally crawling over the crowds to try to get closer to the Pontiff. I hate to use stereotypes, but often people of the Mediterranean and Middle East are much more emotionally expressive than people from Europe north of the Alps, and Americans. I don't think the English or Swedes would ever crawl over people and scream like banshees to get a hand toward the Pope, but somehow that these Middle Easterners would doesn't surprise me. Southern Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Arabs, etc. can get a little excited when it comes to big events in life, I find!

And this is coming from a Sicilian-American, so please no one take offense!

Alexis

Alexis,

Don't forget that it is a well-established Roman custom to applaud the Bishop of Rome when he enters and leaves a church. The people even applaud the Pope's coffin, as happened during the funeral of Pope John Paul II.

That said, I agree Pope Benedict XVI received a VERY enthusiastic welcome both at Regina Pacis Centre and at St George's Cathedral

Yes, and the English part of me says: applause doesn't belong in liturgical celebrations!! LOL.

Alexis

It's not unusual for Antiochian Orthodox to serve on Greek-Catholic parish councils - for that matter, it's not unusual in the Middle East to find Eucharistic sharing between Catholics and Orthodox - the Antiochians in the USA are decidedly uncomfortable with this.

Fr. Serge

Well for good reason I would think, Reverend Father!

Alexis

Earlier, someone mentioned the "Minor Eastern Patriarchs", I think this is a mistranslation of what was intended to be said. The Oriental Churches are called "Lesser or Minor Eastern Churches", to differentiate between the "Greater or Major Eastern Churches" of the Byzantine Rites. This is not to degrade them, but to recognize their place in history. The "Greater Churches" were imperial, while the "Lesser" ones were the countryside and native churches -- we see the differences and similarities to this day (iconostas v. veil, etc)

Actually, it is simpler than this and it is not all Oriental Catholic Churches or Patriarchs that are so styled. The Major Eastern Patriarchs are those whose Patriarchal Sees are deemed to have been established by Apostles.

The sole Patriarchates denoted as Minor are those of the Armenians and the Chaldeans. The others - Alexandria of the Copts, Antioch of the Melkites, Antioch of the Maronites, and Antioch of the Syriacs - are deemed Major.

Many years,

Neil

Yes Neil you are right, the major see in that region are Jerusalem and Antioch. The other Patriarchates that are styled of other places in the region are designated minor, as they came about later on.

Canonically there is no distinction between "major" and "minor" Eastern Churches or patriarchates. The terms may have been used by historians in the past, especially to distinguish between Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Eastern Churches, but I don't think the terms "major" and "minor" are very useful or provide any greater insight into the history of these Churches. Indeed, today I think distinguishing between "major" and "minor" patriarchates is rather unfortunate, and in fact inaccurate, because, as I have said, canonically there is no such distinction in the Catholic Church.

THE VIDEO OF THE CELEBRATION (complete):

http://www.ktotv.com/cms/videos/fiche_video.html?idV=00044903&vl=video_preferees

Resumés:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lExRdWGF7Gw

http://blog.cancaonova.com/terrasanta/2009/05/09/celebracao-das-vesperas/

But what about photos, anyone hasn't any until now? I've just found these two: http://www.melkite.org/Patriarch/PA12.htm

Those people are going NUTS at the beginning. You'd think the Beatles were in town.

Alexis

Actually, that was calm for the Middle East. I was expecting lots of ululation!

Fr. Serge

thanks for posting the links

The French presenter seems to be much better informed than the one at EWTN. He recognized Patriarch Gregory III, despite the fact that his Beatitude's address obviously wasn't included in the original program...

Dear Friends:

Looking at the service, it seems that the Pope and his people were completely out of the loop.

I can't say for sure but I think that the Patriarch of Antioch decided to show up at the last moment and then threw a little wrench into their neet arrangements.

The Pope and his masters of ceremony occasionally looked at their books for guidance and seemed lost at times.

If this is the case Pope Benedict may have only intended to preside at the service and not actively participate.

But non-the-less someone should familiarize His Holiness with the basic forms of Byzantine liturgical practice.

How hard would that be?

JL.

JL,

Well, although in a perfect world the Pope would be fairly familiar with "Byzantine liturgical practice," I'm sure that's pretty far down on his list of things to do.

He is the visible Head of one-fifth of humanity, you know. He has a pretty busy schedule~

Alexis

I always feel bad about interrupting threads to do this, but I'm always so pleased to see a post by one of our long-absent brothers (and our sisters, too, but they seem to go walkabout less frequently)!

Welcome home, Jose, good to see you here!

Many years,

Neil

Pope Benedict, aka Joseph Ratzinger, is an outstanding expert in matters liturgical (read his wonderful book The Spirit of the Liturgy for a sample), so it would not really have been a terrible burden to have prepared himself for Great Vespers.

Since Patriarch Gregory III is, among other things, the Greek-Catholic Patriarch of Jerusalem, it is normal that he would be there and would greet Pope Benedict.

Fr. Serge

Dear Neil:

Thanks for remembering.

I post very infrequently now, life can be complicated you know.


To Father Serge...

I was very pleased to see the Patriarch at the service and admire him greatly but I don't think they expected him.

For that matter, I was amazed that all the Patriarchs and Hierarchs managed to come at all.

Just a digress...
Father, when will you be coming to Canada?

The last time I saw you was years ago at St Elias for Father George's panikhida.

I knew Father George well and Father Roman is a friend of mine.


Jose J. Lopes

I'm unlikely to be in Canada any time soon - arthritis makes such a trip difficult. So please come visit Dublin! You're always welcome (almost always - avoid Dublin like the plague on 17 March), but I should mention that the next Eucharistic Congress is to take place here in 2012, so you might like to plan to come for it.

Fr. Serge

The service can now also be watched here: http://www.benedictxvi.tv/video/2009/514-09-05-2009-GIORDAN-vespers-Greek-Melkite-ceremony.wmv

The Pope's sermon can be found here: http://www.benedictxvi.tv/video/2009/517-09-05-2009-GIORDAN-vespers-speech.wmv

This is all thanks to the wonderful website BenedixtXVI.tv: http://www.benedictxvi.tv/

Dear Latin:

Thanks so much!

Was that ever cool to watch.

I notice that the Zhezl Cloth had the Papal Coat of Arms on it.

What is that Cloth on the Zhezl properly called?
And why is it there? What does it do or symbolize?

Christ is Risen!

Herb

Dear Herb,

I think you wrote without willing, but it was the Patriarchal Coat of Arms in the episcopal staff, not Papal.

Ah, yesterday I noticed that His Holiness also didn't know how to use the thurible to incense the Holy Gospel after the Procession, doing in a Latin way with one hand holding it and with another, its chains. Besides that, he seemed pressurous to take to himself the Gospel, not allowing the deacon (or priest, I don't remember) to kiss his hand.

And is it correct to the Bishop, after receiving the Gospel, to bless the congregation in a cruciform way (I don't remember)? The Pope did that.

1. The cloth on the pastoral staff has (originally) a quite practical reason - it protects the pastoral staff from perspiration, especially in hot climates. While one still sees quite simple cloths, they have also become stylized over the centuries and are often made to match the vestments.

2. It is normal for the priest or bishop (but not, of course, the deacon) to bless the assembly with the Gospel Book. However, in the Roman tradition, this is reserved to the Pope.

Fr. Serge

Bless, Father!

But what is the name of the cloth in Greek and, for our sister, in a slavic language (and in Arabic, if possible)?

I know priests and bishops bless the assembly with the Gospel after reading it. But do bishops do that after receiving the Book after the procession?!

The short answer is no.

Another thing: usually, the Gospel is only carried in the Vespers procession if a reading from the Gospels is appointed. In the case of this Papal Vespers, there was no reading from the Gospel, only from the Epistle to the Ephesians. So, having the Gospel in the Vespers Procession was a bit anomalous.

Dave

Thanks, Dave!

I guessed bishops won`t do the blessing with Gospel, even because the deacon or priest who carries it to him is supposed to do that just before. But did the carrier of the Gospel in the Melkite celebration did the blessing indeed? I didn`t see it, and I think they were recording another image of the Church at the moment.



I found that strange! By the way, as people has already commented here, the Pope standed up to the reading of the Epistle, probably, I guess, thinking it was of the Gospel, as the Holy Book was carried in the procession just before.

In the slightly unusual event that a hierarch is "pontificating" Vespers, one properly carries the Gospel Book even if there is no Gospel lesson, because at the Entrance the Bishop will take the dikerotrikera and bow low - and it would be rather more than odd to bow low before the thurible! Alas, one often sees this done incorrectly.

Fr. Serge

re the "cloth" thing on the zhezl, Thank you Father Serge for explaining, always wondered about that.

Yes, but even with all the little liturgical glitches (like where were the deacons {not to mention Archdeacons and Protodeacons (gotta have deacons!)), it still seems like a wonderful celebration, the singing was beautiful and full-hearted. And the Pope seemed genuinely thrilled and inspired.

I thought His Beatitude Gregorios III (Pontiff of Pontiffs and 13th Apostle) spoke exceedingly well.

There was one part of the Divine Liturgy where H.B. Gregorios sings in Greek. What was that?

To what Divine Liturgy do you refer?

Fr. Serge

Oops... sorry, it was Vespers in the video. I'm assuming that it was Psalm 141... I could be wrong.

Psalm 140. It the Lamp-lighting psalsm, when our Patriarch chanted in Greek.

Actually, it was not EWTN providing the English commentary. It was using the English commentary from Charles Collins of Vatican Radio. He identifies himself at the end of the coverage.

If you want to send an e-mail to Charles Collins in care of Vatican Radio and inform him of his error, you can send it at: english@vatiradio.va

For those still interested, I have just heard back from those who organised the prayers and who chanted in the choir with the pope (Vespers service in Melkite cathedral, Jordan).

1. You may be interested to note that since there is no Fimi for the pope, they used the one for our Patriarch Gregory and merely changed the name.

2. The service had to be shortened and altered slightly at the Vatican's request. The local Church had initially wanted to celebrate a full, normal Byzantine service of Great Vespers.

Very interesting.

So the culprit of the not-so-Byzantine service was the Vatican itself... Quite obvious.

There is certainly a Fimi for the Pope - it was sung solemnly at the Mass which marked the beginning of Pope Benedict XV's pontificate.

Fr. Serge

duhhh...what's a fimi?

A Fimi is the solemn string of titles of a given hierarch, chanted when the hierarch serves. Sometimes these titles are quite startling:

GREGORIOS, our most holy, most blessed, most venerable, our chief and lord; Patriarch of the great city of Antioch, of Alexandria and Jerusalem, of Cilicia, Syria, and Iberia, of Arabia, Mesopotamia and the Pentapolis, of Ethiopia, all Egypt and All the East [of the United States and Canada, Australia and all North and South America], Father of Fathers, Shepherd of Shepherds, Pontiff of Pontiffs and Thirteenth Apostle! Eis polla eti, Despota, Eis polla eti, Despota, Eis polla eti, Despota!

I remember singing this acclamation while Patriarch Maximos V processed into Saint George's Church in Birmingham - when we reached "Eis polla eti, Despota", the Roman Catholic bishop behind me said in a puzzled tone of voice "ora pro nobis?"

The portion I put in brackets is (so far, at any rate) normally used only in the diaspora. The honorific "Thirteenth Apostle" indicates that the Patriarch is of such significance as to be ranked next after the Twelve.

Fr. Serge

Very, very disappointing.

Not to nitpick so much, but I'm really beginning to wonder about the massive gap between the Pope's writings on the liturgy and his actual approach to its celebration (despite the modest restorations of the past few years). I find it ironic that he praised the Eastern Christian tradition even as he was presiding over what can only be described as a travesty of its liturgical tradition.

"Not to nitpick so much, but I'm really beginning to wonder about the massive gap between the Pope's writings on the liturgy and his actual approach to its celebration (despite the modest restorations of the past few years). "

He's 86 years old, for crying out loud. Cut the guy some slack.

He is 82 years old and in excellent health, and none of the changes to the Vespers service are attributable to old age.

AHA - but did he know of the alterations ? Or was it just the Vatican staff deciding that they knew what was wanted - the old 'pastoral sensitivity ' thing ?

I tend to agree. JP II spent a lot of time taming the curia and reminding them that it was he God, St Peter, and the cardinals and put in charge.

Photos in the Vatican website:

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/photogallery/2009/20090512-1/index.html