The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Melkite Catholic, Alexander T., Raphael1999, Adrián Badida, fr nick
5641 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (JLF), 170 guests, and 243 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,839
Posts412,472
Members5,641
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP #316959 03/30/09 02:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Father Borislav Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Are these done yet?
If they are, does anyone know where I can pick up a copy of the Trebnik and Sluzhebnik?

Thanks in advance.

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Father Borislav] #316984 03/30/09 08:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
You don't seem to have listed any books. If you know of any published by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate, please tell me and I'll try to have someone chase them down. The bookshop at the Monastery of the Caves would probably stock them.

Fr. Serge

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #317007 03/30/09 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Father Borislav Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Father, that came across wrong. I was actually trying to find out if the translations of the Trebnik and Sluzhebnik is done yet.

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Father Borislav] #317095 03/31/09 08:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dear Subdeacon Borislav,

So far all that I've seen, even in draft form, is a Ukrainian translation of the Sluzhebnik (it's far too free a translation). I'd like to find the UOC-MP's version of the service to Saint Peter (Mohyla).

I also would like to find complete editions of the eventual translations - the Kyiv Patriarchate has published some good books, but such volumes as the Trebnyk, the Octoechos, the Menaion, and the two Triodia are drastically abbreviated, darn it. Their Chinovnik isn't bad - it seems to be a straight translation of the last Moscow edition (from the eighties, I think).

Fr. Serge

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #317116 03/31/09 02:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Father Borislav Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
I have the KP Trebnik. It is not bad imo, but I'd prefer to MP one...


Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Father Borislav] #317134 03/31/09 05:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
H
Halia12 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
I guess I have been out of the loop.
I did not kow that the UOC-MP uses modern Ukrainian rather than Church Slavonic to clebrate the liturgy. Good news, but I surprised that there is not opposition from the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine.

Also regarding Petro Mohyla. Has the UOC-MP lifted the excommunication placed on Petro Mohyla by the MP?

I was not aware of this event either.

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Halia12] #317135 03/31/09 05:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
I'm not aware that the Moscow Patriarchate ever attempted to excommunicate Metropolitan Peter (Mohyla) - would have been tricky, since he belonged to the Ecumenical Patriarchate (and so did the Church in Ukraine at the time).

As to the canonization, remarkably enough all three "jurisdictions" in Ukraine canonized him at almost the same time - in separate ceremonies, of course. Moscow authorized its Ukrainian Orthodox Church to do the canonization. The Church of Romania promptly seconded the motion, so to speak. Metropolitan Volodymyr kindly gave me an icon-reproduction of Saint Peter.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate does not enforce the use of Ukrainian everywhere, but there are places where it is a pastoral necessity.

So it goes.

As to the Trebnyk, there are several Ukrainian editions in circulation: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada produced a two-volume Trebnyk; the Orthodox Church in Poland produced a smaller Trebnyk in Ukrainian during the inter-war period; I think that Bound Brook produced a Trebnyk sometime or other, the Greek-Catholics produced one in the early nineteen-seventies, and there is the one produced recently by the Kyiv Patriarchate.

Rumor has it that the Greek-Catholics are working on what is to be a much longer Trebnyk in Ukrainian, based on the Stauropegion edition of the nineteen-twenties and the Trebnyk produced by Saint Peter (Mohyla) just before his repose.

I don't know what exactly is available in Byelorusian at the moment.

Some bits and pieces are informally in circulation in Russian, but the Moscow Patriarchate is not at all anxious to encourage the use of modern Russian. Strange, actually; the Patriarchate allowed the use of modern Russian to some parishes reconciled from the "Living Church" groups, but gradually . . .

Fr. Serge

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #317136 03/31/09 06:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
H
Halia12 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
I'm not aware that the Moscow Patriarchate ever attempted to excommunicate Metropolitan Peter (Mohyla) - would have been tricky, since he belonged to the Ecumenical Patriarchate (and so did the Church in Ukraine at the time).


Fr. Serge


My mistake, I was thinking of Ivan Mazepa. I was reading on Interfax, objections to a new award or metal iniated by President Yushchenko and how 2009 is the year of Ivan Mazepa. The article mentioned that Ivan mazepa was excommunicated.
Does this still apply to the UOC-MP? I guess president Yushchenko will not be awarding the "Ivan Mazepa" metal to Metropolitan Volodymyr (UOC-mp)!

But I am glad to read that Ukrainian is being used by

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Halia12] #317141 03/31/09 07:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Father Borislav Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Originally Posted by Halia12
I guess I have been out of the loop.
I did not kow that the UOC-MP uses modern Ukrainian rather than Church Slavonic to clebrate the liturgy. Good news, but I surprised that there is not opposition from the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine.

Also regarding Petro Mohyla. Has the UOC-MP lifted the excommunication placed on Petro Mohyla by the MP?

I was not aware of this event either.


Dearl Halia.

The UOC uses both Ukrainian and Church Slavonic depending on the needs of particular parishes. In Eastern Ukraine you will find Church Slavonic. In Western and some parts of Central Ukraine you will find more parishes using vernacular Ukrainian.

Further the translation that will be coming from the UOC at least for the Gospel will be far superior to the KP version, simply because the KP version is a translation from Russian. The translation being worked on by the UOC is actually a translation from Greek.


Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Father Borislav] #317149 03/31/09 10:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
M
Miller Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
Originally Posted by Subdeacon Borislav


Dearl Halia.

The UOC uses both Ukrainian and Church Slavonic depending on the needs of particular parishes. In Eastern Ukraine you will find Church Slavonic. In Western and some parts of Central Ukraine you will find more parishes using vernacular Ukrainian.

Further the translation that will be coming from the UOC at least for the Gospel will be far superior to the KP version, simply because the KP version is a translation from Russian. The translation being worked on by the UOC is actually a translation from Greek.



I was wondering what was wrong with the translation of the Bible by the late Metropolitan Hilarion? He was a philologist and specialized in Biblical languages such as Hebrew and Greek.
Is the whole Bible being translated into modern Ukrainian or just the Gospel and Epistle readings for the services?

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Miller] #317150 03/31/09 10:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Father Borislav Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
I apologize but I am ill equipped to answer that particular question brother, perhaps Father Serge can talk about the translation of Metropolitan Hilarion.


Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Miller] #317216 04/01/09 06:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Metropolitan Hilarion (previously Professor Ivan Ohienko) did indeed know his stuff linguistically and as early as the nineteen-twenties was producing learned articles on various problems of translating Biblical and liturgical texts.

The first translation of the complete Bible into Ukrainian, however, did not appear until the nineteen-sixties when the Basilians (!) produced one. This seems odd, since the Orthodox certainly use the "deutero-canonical" books (that is, the books which are in the LXX but not in the Masoretic text). One can only assume that there was a Protestant influence somewhere.

If the Moscow Patriarchate is really translating straight from Greek into Ukrainian, I look forward to the results. Just before the celebrations in 1988, the Moscow Patriarchate published a Ukrainian New Testament - which was translated directly from the unoriginal Russian. Not to be outdone, Filaret has since published an entire Bible translated from the unoriginal Russian (aside from the amusement value, it is worth having).

Patriarch Joseph the Confessor, of holy memory, was convinced that the Church-Slavonic tradition was sufficiently different from the modern Greek tradition that services-books should be translated into Ukrainian from Church-Slavonic. He had a point, but his conclusion is still problematic.

De gustibus non est disputandum!

Fr. Serge

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #317257 04/01/09 02:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
M
Miller Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher

The first translation of the complete Bible into Ukrainian, however, did not appear until the nineteen-sixties when the Basilians (!) produced one. This seems odd, since the Orthodox certainly use the "deutero-canonical" books (that is, the books which are in the LXX but not in the Masoretic text). One can only assume that there was a Protestant influence somewhere.

Patriarch Joseph the Confessor, of holy memory, was convinced that the Church-Slavonic tradition was sufficiently different from the modern Greek tradition that services-books should be translated into Ukrainian from Church-Slavonic. He had a point, but his conclusion is still problematic.

De gustibus non est disputandum!

Fr. Serge


Well, the Ukrainian translation by Metropolitan Hilarion Ohienko was funded by the British and Foreign Bible Society, a Protestant Group. His translation & association with the Society began in the iner-war period. I have a booklet somewhere about Metropolitan's Hilarion's Bible translation and it mentions that a significant group of Ukrainian Baptist ministers were on the Bible Society's committee and they caused considerable problems for Metropolitan Hilarion. In addition it was not the policy of the Bible Society to translate the "deutero-canonical" books at that time.
I was talking to my priest this morning after the Presantified Liturgy & he agreed with the comments about translating from the Church Slavonic. Our priest is from the Orthodox Church of Poland and he has graduate degrees from the Theological Academy.

Last edited by Miller; 04/01/09 02:49 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #317258 04/01/09 02:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Diak Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Quote
I think that Bound Brook produced a Trebnyk sometime or other, the Greek-Catholics produced one in the early nineteen-seventies, and there is the one produced recently by the Kyiv Patriarchate.


The Studites through Svichado produced a Trebnik generally rendered from the Rome Maly Trebnik a few years ago, nicely bound and done.

Re: RE: New Ukrainian Language Service books done by the UOC-MP [Re: Diak] #317335 04/02/09 03:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Father Borislav Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
I am not aware of a Bound Brook Trebnyk...

I will check when I am there for St. Thomas Sunday in a couple of weeks.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3