here's an interesting article/interview

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=355

any thoughts?

Herb

I agree with his views to a certain extent. I see no need nor any value in securing any posistion or formal sanction from Moscow.

The idea the Patrairch is promoting is of a Unified church in Ukraine, of which believers of the Ukrainian/Kyivan Tradition from around the world could be united under a spiritual head under the form of a unified and apostolic Patriarchate in Kyiv.

This would then, in my opinion, give Moscow no sway over such a unification because this would effect the Church in Ukraine and the diaspora. Throughout this process, I feel it should be made clear that Moscow and the Church there are a seperate entity, a seperate church, and that all historical and territiorial claims will be history, and not rehashed to the present as if Ukraine and her Church were still dominated by Moscow.

Now to something the Patriarch did not point out in this article/interview, but many have discussed it, that the name of the Church would be the Kyivan Christian Church because in the context of Christianity in its original, spiritual, and ideal form, the church is Christian. And in the case of the Church in Ukraine, its historical and spiritual center has been and should be in Kyiv. So therefore, it would be the Kyivan Church.


This is still a most complex issue as the Patriarch pointed out. I think that having 3 patrairchs, as he implied, to make one, would be a brand new migrane already to the ongoing headache that is the situation of many churches in Ukraine.

But the need for a unified Church in Ukraine, centered in Kyiv, is *essential* for the nation's survival and for the future of there even being a church for the faithful. It would unite the people with the other Christian Patriarchates of the world (Rome included of course), it would cut off the political sway the Moscow church has in Ukraine, and most importantly, it would be a great milestone in all of Christianity-- a severed Church, comming together again to worship Christ as one.

Just my reflections on the issue.

From the armchair,
ukrainiancatholic

I knew there had to be at least one more reason to support the movement for the Patriarchate: the achievement of the full recognition of the Patriarchate will deliver us from the Interfax nonsense of "Supreme Archbishop". Will someone please tell them to cut it out?

Next complaint: sorry, but "Kyivan Christian Church" will not do - the simply word "Christian" these days is hopelessly ambiguous. There is nothing at all the matter with "Orthodox-Catholic" or "Catholic-Orthodox" (the word order doesn't disturb me either way). These are historic words that mean something. "Christian" is a historic word which is now as good as meaningless - I regret that, but it is a linguistic fact. In spoken Ukrainian, it is not unusual to hear "Christian" (as a noun) used as a generic term meaning "human being", as in the sentence: "Every Christian wants to have an automobile" (a direct quote from a bishop of genuine holiness whom I prefer not to name in this disedifying context). And there is no lack of contributors to this Forum who can tell us entirely too much about numerous commuinities calling themselves "Christian" and propagating some ideas which would not usually have qualified as "Christian doctrine" in a more precise age.

Incognitus

Incognitus,

Perhaps I am too much of an idealist

Interesting. This is where the support of Rome and Constantinople are needed to back the proposed reorganization.

Would it not be awesome to have an Orthodox-Catholic or Catholic-Orthodox Church in communion with Rome and Constantinople?

I am certain there will be a lot of negative feedback generated from the orthodox Orthodox groups, with possible further schisms, but there may also be further communion between the conservative and reformed Orthodox Churches and Rome.

I pray the power of the Holy Spirit ensures the will of Our Lord is carried out, whatever the end result.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Michael

Dear UkrainianCatholic,

Just what exactly is the historic relationship between the Russians and Ukrainians. I always assumed that the Russian Church started in Kyiv and that they were one and the same people...Horrors!

I'm quite ignorant about that part of the world, other than knowing that Ukraine was the bread basket of Europe, and that the Germans wanted to expand into it...by eliminating the Ukrainians of course.

I also know that the Russians caused a false famine killing millions of people. Other than that, I'm an idiot. Are there racial and linguistic differences? It is a slavic language, but is it closer to Polish or Russian?

I gather from some of the posts that Ukraine was united with Poland at one time. I also recall hearing that the overlords of Poland were Russian. Well at least I know that Bismark hated them, but liked the Poles.

I'm so curious?

Zenovia

Nonsense!

The Orthodox Church would never accept this neo-Uniate "dual communion" proposal. It was already offered to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox by the Melkites and properly rejected. No break off pieces communions (or neo-Unias). The Antiochians stated that they would entertain no communion offers outside of the entire Orthodox Church. And this offer would never get the approval of all the Autocepahlous and Autonomous Churches. From the viewpoint of worldwide Orthodoxy, this proposal from the Ukrainian Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church is an absolute non-starter.

But hopefully, Orthodoxy will be prepared for true and meaningful dialogue where everything is placed on the table (including Vaticans I and II). But will Rome? That is the question.

Three Cents

Nonsense.

The Antiochian Greek Orthodox's courteously negative response to the Melkite same offer is the standard to be applied here. Orthodoxy is not interested in individual Church deals (or neo-Uniatism).

Any Communion proposal from the Ukrainian Cardinal would have to be submitted to the entire Orthodox Church through the Official Dialogue. And I seriously doubt that the other Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church would allow this to be put forth anyway (outside of the standard Unia, which is always on the table).

Just my Three Cents.

Hey Mr. Ms. Mrs. or is it Rev. "Three Cents"!
Guess you're the kind of person who sees a glass half empty rather than half full.
Instead of looking at the "off the wall" concept as an impossibility, why not consider how it could become a reality. Our world has been affected positively by risk takers, not by pessimists.
With God all things are possible. Remember?
Mnohaya Lita to all Ukrainian Orthodox and Greek Catholics - let us pray that they [we] all be one!
Slava Isusu Chistu! Slava Na Vike!

I believe the Patriarch is reviving an idea that was originally brought about by the late Metroplitan Andrew before the 2nd world war. It was ideal that he worked hard for, but one that I do not know if it has reached the point of becoming a reality. I guess we will have to wait and see for the responses and then see were it goes from there.

In this case the glass is neither half full or empty, just at the half way point. Time will tell if it is filling or emptying.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father Anthony:
Let us pray it fills.
God Bless you!

Dear Three Cents,

I just came from the prayer section and read the most beautiful prayer by Bob about reconciliation. Please read it.

I really think prayers are what's needed

In Christ,

Zenovia

First of all, in Christian love (or even in the world's sense of common courtesy), I will never refer to anyone as Hey ... It is an obvious attempt at being demeaning and on that issue I will say no more.

Pray without ceasing.
Faith without works is dead.

Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!

Three Cents

It was also rejected by Rome in a letter from then Cardinal Ratzinger IIRC.

Andrew

If such an idea has arisen in both the Patriarchate of Antioch and the Church of Kyiv in a relatively short space of time, this is sufficient to make the idea more interesting. In the Patriarchate of Antioch, no matter who may be saying what, it is true that traditional Christians of Orthodox faith and Catholic adherence are welcome to receive Holy Communion at the altars of both judicatories (this does not apply in the USA and Canada, to the best of my knowledge; it certainly applies in Damascus).

An immediate rejection need not necessarily be a permanent rejection; often such ideas must be given time to percolate, as the history of the Church amply demonstrates.

I don't pretend to know what will happen in the Church of Kyiv in the next while, but I'm inclined to think that it may be worth watching. Patriarch Lubomyr is a cautious man, not given to making public pronouncements if he thinks that they will be shot down within minutes and will remain dead.

So patience, prayer and a willingness to see what may develop might be the best approach here.

Incognitus