www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ecumenical Councils under the Pope?

Stuart, could you provide evidence that supports your claim that the Holy See "obviously approves" of everything in Ravenna or Balamand or any similar documents?

Joe

1. The documents are signed by the Secretary of the Pontifical Commission for Promoting Christian Unity, a dicastery of the Holy See. Do high curial officials act without consulting the Pope of Rome?
2. The recommendations of the documents have been including in subsequent pontifical documents, either directives, Encyclicals, or pastoral letters
3. With regard to Balamand, Pope John Paul II expended considerable time and effort getting the Eastern Catholic Churches--particularly the Romanian Greek Catholic Church to sign on.
4. No Pope has ever repudiated or contradicted any of the the various documents of the Joint International Theological Commission since it began meeting more than thirty years ago.

Stuart,

I spent a good deal of time yesterday looking through the decrees of the Trent, and couldn't find exactly where the Church of Rome was equated to the Church of God. Even if I could, it was common then to refer to the entire Catholic Communion as "the Church of Rome," since it is headed by and presided in love by the See of Rome and its bishop. "The Church of Rome," although I agree not the best way to put it, did not mean the Latin Rite only, to the exclusion of the Maronites or other Catholics using Eastern rites. While the idea later arose that we are, in fact, really a Communion of different sui iuris Churches, employing various rites, at this time "the Church of Rome" meant nothing other than "the Catholic Church." And I'm not sure what's so revolutionary in saying that the Church of God is the Catholic Church.

Alexis

""The Church of Rome," although I agree not the best way to put it, did not mean the Latin Rite only, to the exclusion of the Maronites or other Catholics using Eastern rites."

Yes, it did. I recommend you look up the Papal Bull Magunus Dominus (1598), which lays out in splendid detail just why there can be no such thing as, e.g., a Ukrainian Greek Catholic "Church", thus negating the Treaty of Brest and reducing the Ruteni to the status of a "rite" of the Roman Catholic Church, entirely Latin in doctrine and theology, allowed to retain its liturgical rites and ecclesiastical discipline by way of dispensation.

One of the really interesting things about this is Rome made no attempt to interfere with the discipline of Holy Matrimony, in which the Greek Catholics followed Orthodox canons--including those related to divorce and remarriage. It was not until 1917, and the issuance of a common Code of Canons (with Moltu Proprio for the Eastern Catholics) that we were actually made to conform with Latin usage in this area.

Stuart,

I think we may be talking past each other. I don't really see this as a faith issue. So the Eastern Churches in union with Rome were viewed as Roman Catholics using different rites. Yeah, for sure. I guess we're not disagreeing on that.

As far as divorce and remarriage, that isn't just mere discipline. That's a matter of faith. Marriage cannot be ended when both the spouses are alive. I guess I'll be viewed as Latinizer now!

Alexis

"As far as divorce and remarriage, that isn't just mere discipline. That's a matter of faith. Marriage cannot be ended when both the spouses are alive. I guess I'll be viewed as Latinizer now! "

I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.

That makes two of us.

Alexis

Everyone,

Thanks for a good thread; the way this thread and the "what's wrong with the Latin Rite Post Vatican II" thread gone on to excellent roads in terms of perspectives and the like.

Stuart, one question for you. Can you provide (either in this thread or in a spin-off thread) more detail for the following, i.e. more "evidence" that Greek Catholic churches allowed divorce prior to 1917?


Thanks!

Markos

Poor Stuart has been asked to explain and give more detail on an awful lot in this thread.

Though I sense we have different, perhaps vastly different, perspectives on these issues (not the least of which is the question of divorce and remarriage!), your participation and patience is valued, Stuart.

Alexis

One of my sources was our own beloved Fr. Serge, who wrote about this several years back in Eastern Churches Journal. I shall have to browse through my collection of back issues to find it, though. Maybe he can enlighten?

Well it was a long time ago, but let me think back. Yes, it was like that.