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#320930 - 05/05/09 08:02 AM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Our Lady's slave]
rwprof Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 98
Loc: Pennsylvania
Without having the text of Orthodox Vespers in front of me and working solely from memory (I sing Vespers twice a week), the Melkite service looks much the same until the "Petitions," which look like Vatican II PC "Let's write our own litany" nonsense, and everything up to the Paschal Troparion (Christ is risen from the dead!)

I have no clue what "Maronite Song" might be.

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#320933 - 05/05/09 09:02 AM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: rwprof]
Chtec Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Sharon/Hermitage, PA
As I've said in a previous post, I don't read Arabic, so perhaps one of our Arabic readers can fill in some of the gaps and correct what I assume are bad/incorrect English translations.

That being said, Vespers seems to start off all right: the Entrance of the Pope during "The Angel Cried", opening doxology (and I will presume that the English is a mistake and the Arabic is either "Blessed is our God" or "Glory to the holy, consubstantial..."), Paschal troparion, Psalm 103, Great Litany, and the Lamp-Lighting Psalms. So far, so good. The placement of the Paschal Stichera *here* rather than at the Aposticha where they would belong is a bit unusual.

In the English text, they don't include any dogmaticon/theotokion after the "Glory"; I don't know if the Arabic text is "Joyful light" or a theotokion.

After "Joyful light", this is where things get messy. They have a "hymn" marked 1, 2, 3 in Arabic. Is it the prokeimenon or something else? Unless "The Song of the Message" is the prokeimenon?

The single Scripture reading that follows is a bit of an intrusion outside of Lenten or festal Vespers, but understandable given the desire for a homily.

The Maronite Song is, of course, not part of Byzantine Vespers. smile

Following the homily, there is a litany consisting entirely of special petitions. The usual "Grant us this evening, O Lord", Vesperal litanies, Aposticha, Prayer of Simeon and Trisagion prayers are absent (at least in English)

I don't know what the "Prayer of Consecration" is--maybe someone else is familiar with it.

They conclude Vespers with the troparia of St. Benedict and of Pentecost--no doubt in honor of the Holy Father.

So, first half of Vespers=Good. Second half=confusing.

Dave

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#320945 - 05/05/09 11:15 AM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Chtec]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Thanks for this very interesting analysis!

Originally Posted By: Chtec
As I've said in a previous post, I don't read Arabic, so perhaps one of our Arabic readers can fill in some of the gaps and correct what I assume are bad/incorrect English translations.

"The Angel told the Filled of Grace Lady..." is just a bad English translation of the Arabic. Of course it should say "The Angel cried to the Lady Full of Grace..."

Originally Posted By: Chtec
That being said, Vespers seems to start off all right: the Entrance of the Pope during "The Angel Cried", opening doxology (and I will presume that the English is a mistake and the Arabic is either "Blessed is our God" or "Glory to the holy, consubstantial..."),

The English is indeed a mistake. The Arabic has "Blessed is our God..."
Originally Posted By: Chtec
Paschal troparion, Psalm 103, Great Litany, and the Lamp-Lighting Psalms. So far, so good. The placement of the Paschal Stichera *here* rather than at the Aposticha where they would belong is a bit unusual.

In the English text, they don't include any dogmaticon/theotokion after the "Glory"; I don't know if the Arabic text is "Joyful light" or a theotokion.

There is something missing in the English translation after "Glory be to the Father..." The Arabic text continues with "Today is the day of the Resurrection..." and "Christ is risen from the dead...".

Originally Posted By: Chtec
After "Joyful light", this is where things get messy. They have a "hymn" marked 1, 2, 3 in Arabic.

This is where things get difficult and I need to find my Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic smile
The first verse of the three verses of the "hymn" can be translated something like this:

I sent you out by my strength,
I anointed you to my service,
I aided you with my power,
I lavished you with my grace.


Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Originally Posted By: Chtec
Is it the prokeimenon or something else? Unless "The Song of the Message" is the prokeimenon?

The Arabic text given under "The Song of the Message" is simply "Let us be attentive." Unless there is some test missing here in both languages, I would suggest that "The Song of the Message" is bad English and that what is really meant here is "The Chanting of the Epistle." (The Arabic word risala can mean both "message" and "epistle.")

Originally Posted By: Chtec
The single Scripture reading that follows is a bit of an intrusion outside of Lenten or festal Vespers, but understandable given the desire for a homily.

The Maronite Song is, of course, not part of Byzantine Vespers. smile

Following the homily, there is a litany consisting entirely of special petitions. The usual "Grant us this evening, O Lord", Vesperal litanies, Aposticha, Prayer of Simeon and Trisagion prayers are absent (at least in English)

I don't know what the "Prayer of Consecration" is--maybe someone else is familiar with it.


The program refers to "Celebration of Vespers with priests, men and women religious, seminarians and ecclesial movements" (source). Perhaps this explains the "Prayer of Consecration" with its reference to "a life of consecrated celibacy."

Originally Posted By: Chtec
They conclude Vespers with the troparia of St. Benedict and of Pentecost--no doubt in honor of the Holy Father.

So, first half of Vespers=Good. Second half=confusing.

Dave


I guess we now have the answer to the question whether the celebration will be in the Byzantine rite or the Roman rite. Apparently the first part of the service will follow the Byzantine rite of Vespers, while the second part will have some elements from the Maronite and Roman rites.

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#320952 - 05/05/09 11:53 AM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Latin Catholic]
John K Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1228
Loc: Rocky Hill, CT
Why can't they just DO vespers if that's what this purports to be? It's turned into a "prayer service for the evening," rather than evening prayer in the Greek Catholic rite.

That's half the problem with these things--nothing is ever good enough the way it is and has to be adjusted, tinkered with, given a theme, watered-down, and muddled until it becomes a photo op, or a "see how wonderful we are" session, instead of a service which worships and praises God. The pope knows where he is and the people know he is there too. Leave the fawning and niceties outside the door of the church and just pray.

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#320956 - 05/05/09 12:06 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: John K]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
John K,

I share your reaction to some extent. To my mind it would have been better to simply celebrate Greek Melkite Vespers. The Holy Father could then have given a sermon at the end, followed by the "Prayer of Consecration" if desired.

I sense a certain amount of political correctness in the way this service has been planned. We have to show our "diversity" and everyone has to "feel included," therefore you have to have a little bit of something for everyone.

Still, hopefully this will be a beautiful and grace-filled moment of prayer for everyone present.


Edited by Latin Catholic (05/05/09 12:09 PM)

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#320965 - 05/05/09 01:42 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Latin Catholic]
Erie Byz Online   content
Member

Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 423
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Wouldn't the Pope of Rome, Latin Rite by training, show diversity in the Church by celebrating a proper Byzantine service? (My thought process after reading your post, just a rhetorical question).

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#320966 - 05/05/09 02:18 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Latin Catholic]
Logos - Alexis Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 4610
Loc: Georgia
I have to agree with John K and Latin Catholic. Just leave well enough alone, for heaven's sake.

Alexis

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#320980 - 05/05/09 04:14 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Erie Byz]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Erie Byz
Wouldn't the Pope of Rome, Latin Rite by training, show diversity in the Church by celebrating a proper Byzantine service? (My thought process after reading your post, just a rhetorical question).

Exactly!

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#320983 - 05/05/09 04:40 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Latin Catholic]
Matta Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 421
Loc: Australia
Well, I was involved in providing English texts to our Arabic brethren in Jordan for this Vespers service.

It looks like they didn't ask for everything they needed, though, as there as some rather strange translations of things: e.g. "Christ is risen" is not in the translation we use in the Melkite Church in English.

In the beginning, the text alternates between Arabic and English; thus you'll see some things missing in English.

Yes, the Arabic after the Hymn to the Evening Light is the Great Prokeimenon.

The Maronite hymn is title: "Let me be a servant in your house, through all the days of my life." I have no idea why it is in there--unless there are many Maronites in the area, who worship closely with the Melkites. This happens a lot, if e.g. the Maronites are a minority and do not have their own church/priest. It may also just be as a way of including them into the whole celebration.

And then, as everyone as already said, the service descends into some sort of Latin para-liturgy based around the Troparion to St Benedict, together with a prayer of consecration to the religious life.

Given all that has been said by the Vatican about the value of rites other than the Latin--and about avoiding liturgical synchretism--I find this mishmash strange.

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#320987 - 05/05/09 04:58 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Matta]
John K Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1228
Loc: Rocky Hill, CT
Originally Posted By: Matta
Well, I was involved in providing English texts to our Arabic brethren in Jordan for this Vespers service.

It looks like they didn't ask for everything they needed, though, as there as some rather strange translations of things: e.g. "Christ is risen" is not in the translation we use in the Melkite Church in English.

In the beginning, the text alternates between Arabic and English; thus you'll see some things missing in English.

Yes, the Arabic after the Hymn to the Evening Light is the Great Prokeimenon.

The Maronite hymn is title: "Let me be a servant in your house, through all the days of my life." I have no idea why it is in there--unless there are many Maronites in the area, who worship closely with the Melkites. This happens a lot, if e.g. the Maronites are a minority and do not have their own church/priest. It may also just be as a way of including them into the whole celebration.

And then, as everyone as already said, the service descends into some sort of Latin para-liturgy based around the Troparion to St Benedict, together with a prayer of consecration to the religious life.

Given all that has been said by the Vatican about the value of rites other than the Latin--and about avoiding liturgical synchretism--I find this mishmash strange.


Interestingly enough, the translations of Psalms 103, 140/141 are those that used to be sung by the Ruthenian Greek Catholics here in the USA. I noticed that right away. As I started reading them, they came right back to me. Are they from the Raya/DeVinck Byzantine prayer book?

Quite honestly, I don't even enjoy watching these Papal liturgies and services as they are so funky and long winded. I don't mind a long service, but let it be long because it's the service and celebrated correctly, not because there are as many blow-hards talking and additions and addendums to make the service "relevant."

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#320993 - 05/05/09 05:30 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: John K]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Oh well, it's a bit disappointing but there's always going to be something we can criticize wink

Let's just hope and pray that Pope Benedict may be safe during this visit and that his pilgrimage of peace may bear spiritual fruit!

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#320994 - 05/05/09 05:36 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Latin Catholic]
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 5996
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
But the question is still

WHY is the Vatican 'messing about ' with services in this way .

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#320996 - 05/05/09 05:41 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Our Lady's slave]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Frankly I can't believe the Pope himself has been closely involved in this, because then I would expect everything to be strictly in accordance with the liturgical books and we might even see His Holiness in Byzantine vestments, which would be very interesting.

However, I think there is some kind of liturgical organizing committee at work here and the word hasn't reached them yet that Pope Benedict XVI is pope now and that he actually wants real liturgy. Everyone should read The Spirit of the Liturgy by one Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. If they did, they would see, among other things, the value of taking part in the liturgical tradition of the Church instead of just trying to make it up as you go along.

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#320997 - 05/05/09 05:53 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Latin Catholic]
Pavel Ivanovich Online   content
Member

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 2788
Loc: Western Australia
It is not very clear who is putting this together for the Papal visit. Is the incorporating of a verses from other traditions represented in the Holy land into the services to reflect the Pope is not just visiting the Melkite community but all Catholics (and others) in the land. Just a thought.

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#320998 - 05/05/09 06:08 PM Re: Re: Pope Benedict XVI to lead Vespers in Melkite church in Holy L [Re: Pavel Ivanovich]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich
It is not very clear who is putting this together for the Papal visit. Is the incorporating of a verses from other traditions represented in the Holy land into the services to reflect the Pope is not just visiting the Melkite community but all Catholics (and others) in the land. Just a thought.

Yes, my guess is that whoever is in charge of this is trying hard to include everyone. Hence the Syriac bishop (episcopus syriacus) who is to chant the Gospel during the Latin-rite Mass in Bethlehem (p. 170). However, this is a fairly small though symbolic interpolation which does not affect the structure of the Latin Mass. With the Vespers in Jordan, on the other hand, it seems to me that the over-all structure of the Greek Melkite service may have been somewhat compromised.

So, what I'm saying is that I'm in favour of a moderate mixing of rites (especially if they are quite traditional, e.g. the chanting of the Gospel by both a Latin and a Greek deacon during some solemn Papal Masses), but I'm not in favour of replacing large chunks of the liturgy of one Church with the liturgy (or para-liturgy!) of another Church.

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