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#317534 - 04/03/09 03:22 PM Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession  
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In this post I meant with the term "Apostolic succession" the list of bishops one who consecrated the other, not the list of the bishops that rightly were on the See of Antioch.

I love history so I've found some information on the Melkite line, but I ask to the people here, surely more informed than me, if they have correction or additional information particularly on the ordinations marked as (?).

Here the list to be checked:

- H.H. Grégoire III Laham was consecrated bishop on 27 Nov 1981 by H.H. Maximos V Hakim - source www.catholic-hierarchy.org
- H.H. Maximos V Hakim was consecrated bishop on 13 June 1943 by H.H. Cyril IX Mogabgab - source www.catholic-hierarchy.org
- H.H. Cyril IX Mogabgab was consecrated bishop on 28 May 1899 by H.H. Peter IV Géraigiry - source www.catholic-hierarchy.org
- (?) H.H. Peter IV Géraigiry was consecrated bishop on 22 February 1882 by H.H. Grégoire II Youssef - source for date: www.catholic-hierarchy.org - source for consacrator: post in other forum.
- (?) H.H. Grégoire II Youssef was consecrated bishop on 1/13 Nov 1856 by H.H. Clément Bathous - source for date: J.Hajjar in Dictionnaire d'histoire et de géographie ecclésiastiques (DHGE), XXII, col.54 - source for consacrator: post in other forum.
- (?) H.H. Clément Bathous was consecrated bishop on 29Jul/10Aug 1836 by H.H. Maximos III Mazlum - source for date: Korolevsky in DHGE, VI, col.230 - source for consacrator: post in other forum.
- H.H. Maximos III Mazlum was consecrated bishop on 6 Aug 1810 by H.H. Agapios II Matar - source: Cyril Charon (Korolevsky) History of the Melkite Patriarchates, Vol II pag 17.
- H.H. Agapios II Matar was consecrated bishop in 1795 by H.H. Cyrill VII Siaj - source: Korolevsky in DHGE, I, col.898
- (?) H.H. Cyrill VII Siaj is a problem. His name before to be consecrated bishop of Hauran/Bostra was Francis (1). I've found that: "Là-dessus [a Saint Saviour], à l'insu de tout le monde, Euthyme Ma'louli, évêque de Fourzol, assisté d'Ignace, archevêque de Homs, sacra trois nouveaux évêques à Saint-Sauveur : les PP. Francis Siaj, Arsène Caramé et Maxime Fakhouri" (2). According (3) this happened a few days after 23 Dec 1763.
But Cyril Charon (Korolevsky) in (4) and also in (5) says that Francis (Cyril) Siaj was consecrated in 1763 by A.Jahuar. This Korolevsky's statment has problems. A.Jahuar lived in Rome between 19 March 1762 e il 1764 (6), and Siaj consecration happened in the monastery of Saint Salviour a very few days after the synod of 23 Dec 1763 (7) -in which A.Jahaur was not present-, and this happened before than Rome allowed Jahuar to return in Lebanon, i.e. after 25.06.1764 (8). Thus it is impossible that A.Jahuar were in Lebanon in Dec 1763 to consecrate Siaj, while it is reasonable that the main consacrator were Euthyme of Fourzol, the more aged basilian and damascene bishop (as Cyril Tanas and his nephew A.Jahaur) and openly partisan of A.Jahaur of which he was the con-consecrator.
- Euthyme Malouli, bishop of Fourzol was consecrated bishop on 14 Sept 1724 (9) by "Néophytos [Nasri], évêque de Sidnaïa, et Basilios Finân, évêque de Baïas Ces deux prélats conférèrent la dignité épiscopale à un prêtre de Maloula, Euthymios, qui devint évêque de Fourzol, puis ils sacrèrent, tous les trois de concert, le P. Séraphim patriarche." (10)
- (?) Néophytos Nasri, bishop of Sidnaïa was consecrated bishop in 1705 by Patriarch Cyrill V Zaim ("8° NÉOPHYTOS Nasri. — C'est de tous les évêques de Sidnaïa celui sur lequel on a le plus de détails. D'après Cyrille Haddad, ancien religieux de la Congrégation basilienne de Saint-Sauveur, auteur d'une histoire inédite de cette Congrégation, il fut sacré évêque de Sidnaïa 'à Damas, en 1705, dans l'église patriarcale de Mariamyé, par le patriarche Cyrille V, qui y avait été poussé par Euthymios Saïfi, archevêque de Tyr et Sidon. C'est dans cette même église que Néophytos, assisté de Basilios Finân, évêque de Panéas, et d'Euthymios, évêque de Fourzol, sacra en 1724 patriarche d'Antioche le prêtre Séraphim Thanas, sous le nom de Cyrille VI") (11)
Also here we have problems because he was appointed bishop of Sidnaïa after 1720, probably in 1722 by Patriarch Athanasius Dabbas. Only appointed (and moved from an other episcopal see) or also consecrated?
- (?) H.H. Cyrill V Zaim was consecrated bishop in 1673..

So I kindly ask who has access to documention I cannot find in the library of my town (I think mainly to the periodical Le liens) to check, correct and complete this list.
thanks

Notes:
(1) Cyril Charon (Korolevsky) "History of the Melkite Patriarchates" Vol I pag 67, ISBN 1892278022
(2) Paul Bacel "L' Église Melkite au XVIII Siècle - Nouvelles intrigues de Jauhar" in Echos d'Orient XV (1912) pag 226 (freely downloadble here)
(3) Mansi "Sacrorum Conciliorum.." vol 46, col 564 (where the events are clearly narrated in Italian, without the name of the consacrator)
(4) Cyril Charon (Korolevsky) "History of the Melkite Patriarchates" Vol II pag 110
(5) Cyril Charon (Korolevsky) "Bostra", DHGE 9, col 1402
(6) Leveno "Athanase IV", DHGE 4, col 1375
(7) Mansi "Sacrorum Conciliorum.." vol 46, col 565
(8) Mansi "Sacrorum Conciliorum.." vol 46, col 566
(9) Joseph Nasrallah, Sa Beatitude Maximos IV et la succession apostolique du siege d'Antionche, Paris 1963, pag 62
(10) Paul Bacel "La congregation des Basiliens Chouerite III. Persecutions de Sylvestre, 1724-1730" in Echos d'Orient VII (1904) pag 156-157 (freely downloadble here)
(11) H. Boustani "Les évêques de Sidnaïa" in Echos d'Orient VII (1904) pag 213 (freely downloadble here)

Last edited by antv; 04/03/09 03:29 PM.
#317537 - 04/03/09 03:33 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: antv]  
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+Maximos IV (Saigh) of blessed memory was Patriarch before +Maximos V Hakim; he actually ordained +Maximos V to the priesthood. If you want to see the Patriarchal line this can be found at
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/danme.html

#317538 - 04/03/09 03:36 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: Diak]  
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Sorry, I just read your opening post again and you were not asking for the Patriarchal line. My mistake.

#317540 - 04/03/09 03:40 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: Diak]  
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Originally Posted By: Diak
+Maximos IV (Saigh) of blessed memory was Patriarch before +Maximos V Hakim; he actually ordained +Maximos V to the priesthood. If you want to see the Patriarchal line this can be found at
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/danme.html


My issue here is not who was Patriarch on the See of Antioch (I know well the list), but who consecrated him bishop (not priest).

Maximos IV (Saigh) was consecrated in 1919 by H.H. Dimitros I Qadi, who in turn was consecrated bishop in 1903 by H.H. Cyril VIII Geha, who in turn was consecrated bishop in 1885 by H.H. Grégoire II Youssef, and here we unite to the line of my previous post

#317546 - 04/03/09 04:29 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: antv]  
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It actually takes three bishops to ordain a priest bishop, so how can one speak of a particular bishop "consecrating" another man bishop?

#317578 - 04/03/09 09:21 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: StuartK]  
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In Catholic terminology there is a principal consecrator and co-consecrators...generally Apostolic Succession is traced through the principal.

#317582 - 04/03/09 10:17 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: Erie Byz]  
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But the Melkites follow Orthodox practice--as well they should--and the cheirotoneia of a bishop requires three bishops, with succession depending upon all three.

#317585 - 04/03/09 11:13 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: StuartK]  
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The Catholic Church considers one bishop sufficient for validity and in Eastern Europe during the Communist persecution this is often all that was available. I am not sure the Orthodox would hold that a bishop ordained by one or two bishops would be invalid depending on the circumstance.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#317599 - 04/04/09 04:17 AM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: StuartK]  
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Originally Posted By: StuartK
But the Melkites follow Orthodox practice--as well they should--and the cheirotoneia of a bishop requires three bishops, with succession depending upon all three.


In addition to the points made by Erie and Deacon Lance, the further back one goes in tracing episcopal lineage, the less documentation exists as to the particulars of any episcopal ordination. The fact most consistently present/recorded is the name of the principal consecrator; it is his identity (generally a senior hierarch) that is most likely to have been preserved.

antv,

I may (no promises) be able to pull together a bit of the info that you're seeking, but it will take a few days as some of my source material is not immediately at hand.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#317602 - 04/04/09 04:45 AM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: StuartK]  
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Originally Posted By: StuartK
But the Melkites follow Orthodox practice--as well they should--and the cheirotoneia of a bishop requires three bishops, with succession depending upon all three.


Also in the Orthodox practice in exceptional cases two bishops can be enough, and that is justified according to the ancient Apostolic Canons (book II, canon 20) and the Canons of Clement (canon 27), canons referred to in some cases also by the patriarch in the pre-division Melkite Church (1)
Moreover in the Byzantine Rite only the main consacretor says the main ordination prayer, i.e. he only gives technically the sacrament (that differently from Latin rite).

Note:
(1) Joseph Nasrallah, Sa Beatitude Maximos IV et la succession apostolique du siege d'Antionche, Paris 1963, pag 60

Originally Posted By: Irish Melkite

antv,

I may (no promises) be able to pull together a bit of the info that you're seeking, but it will take a few days as some of my source material is not immediately at hand.


I appreciate. Of course it takes time. Perhaps also the journal Sophia could have many biographies. I'm writing some short biographies of 18-19th century Melkite patriarchs on Wiki.

Last edited by antv; 04/04/09 04:54 AM.
#317668 - 04/04/09 07:15 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: antv]  
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Use of one bishop to ordain another is only done in an emergency. In the days of the Soviet Union 2 men might meet a park. One a bishop the other a priest. They would appear to meet and then go for a walk together. Only when they parted would both leave the park through separate entrances as bishops. Or bishops in concentration camps might ordain a successor among the priests imprisoned with them if they felt that they might not make it. It's not the proper way where a group of bishops ordains another to join their ranks.

#317685 - 04/04/09 10:32 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: antv]  
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Originally Posted By: antv
Perhaps also the journal Sophia could have many biographies. I'm writing some short biographies of 18-19th century Melkite patriarchs on Wiki.


Antv,

Unfortunately, you won't find anything along those lines in Sophia. Other than an occasional piece, most by Bishop Nicholas, on the history of individual parishes in the US, I can't recollect any historical/biographical articles of that sort in all its years of publication.

I checked the Almanac of the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church, but there isn't any real detail there dating back to the time periods in which you're interested.

I'll get back to you as soon as I can track down some other resources.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
#317730 - 04/05/09 10:08 AM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: Irish Melkite]  
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Originally Posted By: Irish Melkite

Unfortunately, you won't find anything along those lines in Sophia. Other than an occasional piece, most by Bishop Nicholas, on the history of individual parishes in the US, I can't recollect any historical/biographical articles of that sort in all its years of publication.

I checked the Almanac of the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church, but there isn't any real detail there dating back to the time periods in which you're interested.

I'll get back to you as soon as I can track down some other resources.
Thank you for the time you spent

#320988 - 05/05/09 05:01 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: antv]  
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Originally Posted By: antv
In this post I meant with the term "Apostolic succession" the list of bishops one who consecrated the other, not the list of the bishops that rightly were on the See of Antioch.

I love history so I've found some information on the Melkite line, but I ask to the people here, surely more informed than me, if they have correction or additional information particularly on the ordinations marked as (?).

Here the list to be checked:

- H.H. Grégoire III Laham was consecrated bishop on 27 Nov 1981 by H.H. Maximos V Hakim - source www.catholic-hierarchy.org
- H.H. Maximos V Hakim was consecrated bishop on 13 June 1943 by H.H. Cyril IX Mogabgab - source www.catholic-hierarchy.org
- H.H. Cyril IX Mogabgab was consecrated bishop on 28 May 1899 by H.H. Peter IV Géraigiry - source www.catholic-hierarchy.org
- (?) H.H. Peter IV Géraigiry was consecrated bishop on 22 February 1886 by H.H. Grégoire II Youssef - source for date: www.catholic-hierarchy.org - source for consacrator: post in other forum.
- (?) H.H. Grégoire II Youssef was consecrated bishop on 1/13 Nov 1856 by H.H. Clément Bathous - source for date: J.Hajjar in Dictionnaire d'histoire et de géographie ecclésiastiques (DHGE), XXII, col.54 - source for consacrator: post in other forum.
- (?) H.H. Clément Bathous was consecrated bishop on 29Jul/10Aug 1836 by H.H. Maximos III Mazlum - source for date: Korolevsky in DHGE, VI, col.230 - source for consacrator: post in other forum.
- H.H. Maximos III Mazlum was consecrated bishop on 6 Aug 1810 by H.H. Agapios II Matar - source: Cyril Charon (Korolevsky) History of the Melkite Patriarchates, Vol II pag 17.
- H.H. Agapios II Matar was consecrated bishop in 1795 by H.H. Cyrill VII Siaj - source: Korolevsky in DHGE, I, col.898
- (?) H.H. Cyrill VII Siaj is a problem. His name before to be consecrated bishop of Hauran/Bostra was Francis (1). I've found that: "Là-dessus [a Saint Saviour], à l'insu de tout le monde, Euthyme Ma'louli, évêque de Fourzol, assisté d'Ignace, archevêque de Homs, sacra trois nouveaux évêques à Saint-Sauveur : les PP. Francis Siaj, Arsène Caramé et Maxime Fakhouri" (2). According (3) this happened a few days after 23 Dec 1763.
But Cyril Charon (Korolevsky) in (4) and also in (5) says that Francis (Cyril) Siaj was consecrated in 1763 by A.Jahuar. This Korolevsky's statment has problems. A.Jahuar lived in Rome between 19 March 1762 e il 1764 (6), and Siaj consecration happened in the monastery of Saint Salviour a very few days after the synod of 23 Dec 1763 (7) -in which A.Jahaur was not present-, and this happened before than Rome allowed Jahuar to return in Lebanon, i.e. after 25.06.1764 (8). Thus it is impossible that A.Jahuar were in Lebanon in Dec 1763 to consecrate Siaj, while it is reasonable that the main consacrator were Euthyme of Fourzol, the more aged basilian and damascene bishop (as Cyril Tanas and his nephew A.Jahaur) and openly partisan of A.Jahaur of which he was the con-consecrator.
- Euthyme Malouli, bishop of Fourzol was consecrated bishop on 14 Sept 1724 (9) by "Néophytos [Nasri], évêque de Sidnaïa, et Basilios Finân, évêque de Baïas Ces deux prélats conférèrent la dignité épiscopale à un prêtre de Maloula, Euthymios, qui devint évêque de Fourzol, puis ils sacrèrent, tous les trois de concert, le P. Séraphim patriarche." (10)
- (?) Néophytos Nasri, bishop of Sidnaïa was consecrated bishop in 1705 by Patriarch Cyrill V Zaim ("8° NÉOPHYTOS Nasri. — C'est de tous les évêques de Sidnaïa celui sur lequel on a le plus de détails. D'après Cyrille Haddad, ancien religieux de la Congrégation basilienne de Saint-Sauveur, auteur d'une histoire inédite de cette Congrégation, il fut sacré évêque de Sidnaïa 'à Damas, en 1705, dans l'église patriarcale de Mariamyé, par le patriarche Cyrille V, qui y avait été poussé par Euthymios Saïfi, archevêque de Tyr et Sidon. C'est dans cette même église que Néophytos, assisté de Basilios Finân, évêque de Panéas, et d'Euthymios, évêque de Fourzol, sacra en 1724 patriarche d'Antioche le prêtre Séraphim Thanas, sous le nom de Cyrille VI") (11)
Also here we have problems because he was appointed bishop of Sidnaïa after 1720, probably in 1722 by Patriarch Athanasius Dabbas. Only appointed (and moved from an other episcopal see) or also consecrated?


I've got some other infos, and I've fund almost all the informations I looked for:
- H.H. Peter IV Géraigiry: I've got info about his ordination in (1) that says: "..on February 21, Sunday of the Prodigal Son, as we were solemnly celebraing the hierachical Divine Liturgy, we laid our fleble hand upon him [Father Peter Geraigiry], with the assitance and cooperation of our brothers, Gregory Ata, metropolitan of Homs and Hama; Paul Moussaddyeh, bishop of Tripoli of Syria, our auxiliary at Damascus and its dependancies; and Macarios Haddad, our auxiliary in our see of Antioch. We have consecrated him bishop of Paneas...." firmata "Gregory, Patriarch of Antioch, Alexandria Jerusalem and all the East, February 25, 1886". Confirmed also by (2)
- H.H. Grégoire II Youssef was consecrated bishop on 1/13 Nov 1856 by H.H. Clément Bathous: ref in (2) where there are all the Melkite consacrations from 1833 to 1897
- H.H. Clément Bathous was consecrated bishop on 19 Jul 1836 by H.H. Maximos III Mazlum: ref in (2)
- H.H. Maximos III Mazlum: as stated in the above post
- H.H. Agapios II Matar: as stated in the above post. the exact date is 29June / 10Jul 1795 (Mansi vol 46, col 673-674)
- H.H. Cyrill VII Siaj: I as I stated in the above posts, it is by far more plausible that he was consecrated between the 20 and the 25 Dec 1763 by Euthymius Fadel of Malouli bishop of Zahle and Forzol as said by the Bacel.
- Euthymius Fadel of Malouli bishop of Zahle and Forzol: as stated in the above post
- Néophytos Nasri, bishop of Sidnaïa: the date of 1705 proposed by Bacel is not confirmed by other sources: I've got a early biography of this saint bishop (3) that says he was ordained bishop on about 1722 by Patriarch Athanasius III Dabbas. Confirmed also by (4).
- H.H. Athanasius III Dabbas: consacrated bishop on 25 June / 5 July 1685 by Leonce bishop of Saidnai (5)

For who is interested in the apostolic succession of the other patriarchs of Antioch, we have:
- H.H. Ignace Qattan: was consecrated bishop on 1/13 July 1816 (Mansi vol 46, 951) by Cyril, bishop of Tyre, who in turn was consecrated bishop in early August 1810 by H.H. Agapios Matar.
- H.H. Macarius Tawil: was consecrated bishop in 1811 (or early 1812) by H.H. Agapios Matar.
- H.H. Atanasius Matar: was consecrated bishop in 1798 by H.H. Agapios Matar.
- H.H. Ignace Sarrouf: was consecrated bishop on 8 July 1778 by H.H. Teodosius V Dahan.
- H.H. Athanasius IV Jawhar: was consecrated bishop on 31 July 1759 by H.H. Cyril VI Tanas.
- H.H. Teodosius V Dahan: was consecrated bishop on 16 January 1736 by H.H. Cyril VI Tanas.
- H.H. Maximos II Hakim: was consecrated bishop in 1732 by bishop Gerosimos (bishop of Aleppo and one of the founders of the Soarites), who in turn was consecrated bishop on 26 Dec 1721 by Patriarch Athanasius III Dabbas.
- H.H. Cyril Tanas: was consecrated bishop in 24Sept/01Oct 1724, by Néophytos Nasri, bishop of Sidnaïa assisted by Euthymius Fadel of Malouli bishop of Zahle&Forzol and by Basile Finas bishop of Beirut. Basile Finas was in turn consecrated bishop on 2 Febr 1724 by Néophytos bishop of Beirut (who was not N.Nasri), assisted by the Maronite bishop Elias of Arca and by the Armenian bishop Abraham.

notes:
(1)Cyril Charon (Korolevsky) "History of the Melkite Patriarchates" Vol III part 2 pag 214-218, ISBN 1892278049
(2)P.K. Médawar "les consecrations episcopales au XIXéme siecle" in Le Liens n. 3 1979 pag 55-60
(3) biography by Nasri segretary, in Antoine Rabbah "documents inedites puor servir a l'histoire du Christianisme en Orient" Vol 1 Paris-Leipzig 1905 pag 597-621
(4) B. Cattan "Cenni intorno alla vita di Mons. Neofito Nasri vescovo di Saidnaia" in Bessarione year XVI fasc III-IV (1912) pag 348-378
(5) Korolevsky. "Antioche" in DHGE, III, col. 644

Last edited by antv; 05/05/09 05:21 PM.
#320991 - 05/05/09 05:10 PM Re: Help on Melkite Apostolic Succession [Re: antv]  
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I'm looking for some articles about Melkite consecrations by P.K. Médawar. These articles are in Le Lien n. 1-2 of 1977, n. 3-4 of 1977, n. 1-2 of 1978.

I cannot find these numbers of Le Liens in the libraries I usually use. I kindly ask if someone who have them can tell me what these articles are actually about? (consecrations of 18th, 19th or 20th century?). Thanks


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