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#322677 - 05/22/09 03:38 PM More abuse !!!
Converted Viking Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 444
Loc: North Carolina

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#322679 - 05/22/09 04:03 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Converted Viking]
Epiphanius Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 832
Loc: Florida
From the context of the article, it appears that Archpriest Branislav Peranovic's policies are, for the most part, his own and not those of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Note that he is completely up front about the beatings, while "the Serbian Orthodox Church has so far declined comment."

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#322680 - 05/22/09 04:23 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Epiphanius]
Father Anthony Offline

Administrator
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 3404
Loc: New York
Again, like the other scandal of this week extremely sad. I pray that the Church moves quickly to suspend this priest, possibly defrocking him, and makes some sort of outreach to the victims. Otherwise, he and his organization should be criminally prosecuted according to the fullest extent of Serbian law.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
_________________________
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai

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#322685 - 05/22/09 06:06 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Father Anthony]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
I remember one of those "communities" where the alleged divinely-appointed leadership not only used such gentle correction on adults, but required the adults to make the paddles, decorate them with "appropriate" decals, and so on. This elides from sin to insanity.

Fr. Serge

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#322690 - 05/22/09 07:21 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Converted Viking]
harmon3110 Offline
Grateful
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 3446
Loc: Ohio, USA
When I consider any abuse in the Church, two things come to mind. One is that Satan is stopping at nothing to work evil in some and thereby destroy faith in the rest of us. Second, Christ is risen.

The only thing that is going clean up this mess --now as in the past-- is when men, women, and children fully practice the Gospel and fully live the Life in Christ. Investigations are necessary; prosecutions (when practicable) are necessary; but the only way this will ever change is by a new generation of saints.

And it isn't a question of looking for where "they" will rise up. They are us. I mean that. Unless we live the Gospel better, and unless we repent better, there will be no new saints to purify and cleanse the Church: by prayer, penance, and example.

Kyrie Eleison.

-- John

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#322694 - 05/22/09 07:49 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: harmon3110]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
What John says is very true.

Yes, civil and religious authorities must comfort the victims, punish the guilty, and take measures to prevent abuse from happening in the future.

But for all the rest of us, what we can and must do is repent and pray, trusting always in the risen Lord, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

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#322703 - 05/22/09 10:02 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Latin Catholic]
rcguest Offline
Bill from Pgh
Member

Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 712
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
"What John says is very true."

Indeed! How easy it is for so many of us, myself being first, to "talk the talk" but fail to "walk the walk".

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#322708 - 05/22/09 10:47 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: rcguest]
PhilD Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Michigan
I think we just have to try to live the Christian life! God sees whats in our hearts and watches our actions. A generation of Saints sounds very nice but we are humans-imperfect and sinful. As long as you stay in the "struggle" and do it honestly I think God will see that and we will be rewarded. I don't think the Christian journey is about perfection! I know some disagree with me on this but I think its about how we react when we fall in sin. Do you stay down with the snakes or do you get up and carry your cross.

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#322820 - 05/23/09 04:58 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Converted Viking]
Fr David Straut Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 761
Loc: New Jersey
Official Announcement from the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Serbian
Orthodox Church

With shock and sorrow the Holy Synod of Bishops has received news
about the brutal violence which was applied against those afflicted
with the illness of drug addiction at the Crna Reka Monastery of the
Raska-Prizren Diocese. The pictures presented and the open recognition
of a cleric of the Raska-Prizren Diocese are unmistakable evidence of
a violence which is totally foreign to the spirit of the Gospel and
mission of the Church, and which is absolutely unacceptable.

Therefore, the Holy Synod of Bishops calls upon His Grace Bishop
Artemije to disband immediately and without delay the illegal clinic
for the treatment of the illness of addiction, and to undertake
ecclesiastical court proceedings against his clerics who participated
in the violence.

The Holy Synod of Bishops calls on the competent civil authorities to
take measures within their competence in connection with these
unwelcome events.

To the victims of this violence, and to all those who have been
affected in any way by these shameful events, the Holy Synod of
Bishops, in the name of the entire Serbian Orthodox Church, expresses
its most sincere sorrow, especially since this violence occurred near
the relics of St. Peter of Koric, a great monk who with his entire
being and life witnessed to love and non-violence.

-From the Office of the Holy Synod of Bishops

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#323075 - 05/25/09 09:42 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Fr David Straut]
Irish Melkite Offline

Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8416
Loc: Massachusetts
Bless, Father David,

Thank you for posting that.

I applaud the Serbian Holy Synod for its quick and forthright response, especially its call for the civil authorities to act.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#323099 - 05/26/09 06:15 AM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Irish Melkite]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
It is a good response. But what else could they have said, given that the abuse was filmed?

Modern technology (e.g. mobile phones with cameras) fortunately makes it much more difficult to cover up crimes like this.

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#323107 - 05/26/09 08:58 AM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Latin Catholic]
amberpep Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 138
Loc: Maryland, USA
As I read this very sad and painful story, I harken back to something continuously preached at my old Evangelical Church .... we are all sinners saved by Grace .... there, but for the Grace of God go I.
abby
<*)))><

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#323109 - 05/26/09 09:37 AM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: harmon3110]
sielos ilgesys Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 938
Loc: Texas/USA
wasn't it Dorothy Day who said, "The Church is the bride of Christ and simultaneously the Cross upon which He is continually crucified."?

some how we all have to come to terms with the fact that we live in a Church holy in it's head but sinful in its members. Quite a paradox.

my mother maintains that the outrage over abuse by clergy is actually a back-handed compliment: if people didn't react with revulsion and horror, it would mean that they come to expect it.

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#323116 - 05/26/09 10:39 AM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Latin Catholic]
Epiphanius Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 832
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Latin Catholic
It is a good response. But what else could they have said ... ?
LC,

Given the fact that corporal punishment was an absolute given in Catholic schools in their heyday, I somehow feel that while this news is disappointing and what this priest was doing is clearly wrong, it is hardly shocking. If beatings are good in one instance, it certainly follows that they might be good in other instances as well.

Indeed, what we might say is *shocking* is that the Church clung to a philosophy that embraced violence for so long, and that it needed 20th Century psychology to be able to see this from a more accurate perspective.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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#323120 - 05/26/09 11:02 AM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Epiphanius]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5205
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Quote:
Given the fact that corporal punishment was an absolute given in Catholic schools in their heyday


Much as this is a real blot on the Church, we ought to remember that it was the rule in the public schools as well. When I taught in the early 1970s, what was allowed to teachers, defended by the authorities, and sanctioned in the law was no different than what we are reading about here. That does not excuse it in any venue, however. And it may be the reason that there is still so much going on in homes across the land.

Interestingly enough, my licensing board requires us to report any evidence of abuse we think we see on the remains of children and the elderly to the coroner for investigation.

BOB

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#323121 - 05/26/09 11:15 AM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: theophan]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
While we are on this subject, appalling and lamentable as the abuse--both physical and sexual--of children by Catholic is, we must put this in perspective by noting that abuse of children by teachers and staff in public schools is far more prevalent. Some surveys estimate that one out of every ten children enrolled in public schools K-12 will be abused by an employee of the public school systems. And it remains far more difficult to remove and punish school employees than it is to deal with errant clergy.

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#323133 - 05/26/09 12:52 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: StuartK]
Porter Offline
Member

Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 2423
Loc: USA
I do recall some abuse on the part of one of my public grade school teachers. That was in the 1940's. She paddled our hands hard with a paddle and it stung a lot and turned red. But most of all I recall the abuse done by priests who taught us our Saturday catechism classes..with a belt in front of everyone in the class to deter others from speaking back or getting out of line. Mainly this was for the boys who misbehaved as we girls were too afraid to peep out loud let alone misbehave. And this was commonly acceptable. No wonder my mom had to force me to go to those classes.

I thank God that in this time..this is not allowed..and those who abuse children are being called to accountability both by the public school systems and the churches.


Edited by Porter (05/26/09 12:53 PM)

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#323419 - 05/28/09 03:39 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Fr David Straut]
Converted Viking Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 444
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Fr David Straut
Official Announcement from the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Serbian
Orthodox Church

With shock and sorrow the Holy Synod of Bishops has received news
about the brutal violence which was applied against those afflicted
with the illness of drug addiction at the Crna Reka Monastery of the
Raska-Prizren Diocese. The pictures presented and the open recognition
of a cleric of the Raska-Prizren Diocese are unmistakable evidence of
a violence which is totally foreign to the spirit of the Gospel and
mission of the Church, and which is absolutely unacceptable.

Therefore, the Holy Synod of Bishops calls upon His Grace Bishop
Artemije to disband immediately and without delay the illegal clinic
for the treatment of the illness of addiction, and to undertake
ecclesiastical court proceedings against his clerics who participated
in the violence.

The Holy Synod of Bishops calls on the competent civil authorities to
take measures within their competence in connection with these
unwelcome events.

To the victims of this violence, and to all those who have been
affected in any way by these shameful events, the Holy Synod of
Bishops, in the name of the entire Serbian Orthodox Church, expresses
its most sincere sorrow, especially since this violence occurred near
the relics of St. Peter of Koric, a great monk who with his entire
being and life witnessed to love and non-violence.

-From the Office of the Holy Synod of Bishops


It is nice to see that someone can move decisively and quickly.

In Christ:
Einar

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#323422 - 05/28/09 03:45 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Converted Viking]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Yes, but as I said above, the abuse was filmed and could be watched on BBC on the internet. What else could the Serbian Orthodox Church do in response to that kind of evidence?

If there had been mobile phones with cameras in Artane or Letterfrack, things would have turned out differently!

So this is one reason why modern technology may sometimes be a good thing!

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#323437 - 05/28/09 04:55 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Latin Catholic]
Converted Viking Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 444
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Latin Catholic
Yes, but as I said above, the abuse was filmed and could be watched on BBC on the internet. What else could the Serbian Orthodox Church do in response to that kind of evidence?

If there had been mobile phones with cameras in Artane or Letterfrack, things would have turned out differently!

So this is one reason why modern technology may sometimes be a good thing!


I think this is rather cynical. You assume they would have done nothing if technology wasn't involved.

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#323438 - 05/28/09 05:00 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: StuartK]
Converted Viking Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 444
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: StuartK
While we are on this subject, appalling and lamentable as the abuse--both physical and sexual--of children by Catholic is, we must put this in perspective by noting that abuse of children by teachers and staff in public schools is far more prevalent. Some surveys estimate that one out of every ten children enrolled in public schools K-12 will be abused by an employee of the public school systems. And it remains far more difficult to remove and punish school employees than it is to deal with errant clergy.


Stuart:

My wife is a public school employee and she will tell you that child abuse is taken very seriously at least in the the Wake County School system here in Raleigh, NC. There is NO corporal punishment administered to the kids and one would find themselves out of a job and in jail if they administer the paddle. As for sexual abuse, one will go to jail as well.

In Christ:
Einar

PS Could you please tell me where your statistics are from?


Edited by Converted Viking (05/28/09 05:04 PM)

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#323440 - 05/28/09 05:02 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Converted Viking]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Yes, I assume that. If history is anything to go by, I think that's a reasonable assumption too.

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#323441 - 05/28/09 05:07 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Latin Catholic]
Converted Viking Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 444
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Latin Catholic
Yes, I assume that. If history is anything to go by, I think that's a reasonable assumption too.


To make an assumption of such a negative nature seems sinful to me. Assassination of character comes to mind.

Einar

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#323448 - 05/28/09 06:14 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Converted Viking]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
"My wife is a public school employee and she will tell you that child abuse is taken very seriously at least in the the Wake County School system here in Raleigh, NC. There is NO corporal punishment administered to the kids and one would find themselves out of a job and in jail if they administer the paddle. As for sexual abuse, one will go to jail as well."

My sister is a teacher in the New York City public school system; my father is a retired assistant principal. They will tell you that it is extremely difficult to fire a public school teacher due to union and administrative rules, and that many--perhaps most--incidents are either not reported to authorities or not prosecuted. In fact, it is illegal under New York State law to fire a teacher accused of sexual abuse. Abusing teachers are frequently just shunted from school to school, until the retire (does this sound familiar?). One study found that 5% of teachers sexually abused students (which is considerably higher than the percentage of priests abusing children). A comprehensive study is underway at the Department of Education, entitled, “Educator Sexual Misconduct with Students: A Synthesis of Existing Literature on Prevalence in Connection with the Design of a National Analysis.” However, it has not yet been released. Probably too hot to handle.

Some oother important studies and articles include:

Daniel Wishnietsky, “Reported and Unreported Teacher-Student Sexual Harassment,” Journal of Ed Research, Vol. 3, 1991, pp. 164-69.

Douglas Montero, “Secret Shame of Our Schools: Sexual Abuse of Students Runs Rampant,” New York Post, July 30, 2001, p. 1.

“Schools Chancellor: Four Teachers Barred from Classroom,” Associated Press, June 12, 2003.

Charol Shakeshaft and Audrey Cohan, In loco parentis: Sexual abuse of students in schools, (What administrators should know). Report to the U.S. Department of Education, Field Initiated Grants

Diana Jean Schemo, “Silently Shifting Teachers in Sex Abuse Cases,” New York Times, June 18, 2002, p. A19.

Elizabeth Cohen, “Sex Abuse of Students Common; Research Suggests 15% of All Children Harassed,” Press & Sun-Bulletin, February 10, 2002, p. 1A

Berta Delgado and Sarah Talalay, “Sex Cases Increase in Schools; Many Acts of Teacher Misconduct Not Being Reported,” Sun-Sentinel, June 4, 1995, p. 1A.

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#323467 - 05/28/09 06:58 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: StuartK]
Athanasius The L Online   content
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 1122
Loc: Houston, TX
I am a public school teacher and so is my wife. I was not offended by Stuart's post in which the claim was made that "one out of every ten children enrolled in public schools K-12 will be abused by an employee of the public school systems." To me, this is probably best explained by the fact that those who are inclined to abuse or exploit children are often inclined to seek careers or volunteer opportunities in which they have access to children.

Ryan

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#323468 - 05/28/09 07:05 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Converted Viking]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Einar,

This is exactly the type of abuse which would earlier have been swept under the carpet. Now it cannot be ignored.

But you are missing part of my point. Now that there is video evidence, it is also possible to react much more strongly because there is much less doubt about what happened.

Earlier, it was possible to dismiss claims of abuse because it was word against word and there was no clear evidence.

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#323470 - 05/28/09 07:08 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Athanasius The L]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Ryan,

I am afraid you may be right that sexual predators are actively seeking work where they have a chance to prey on the helpless and the innocent.

That's why it is so important that teacher training programs include proper screening of the candidates. Unfortunately no one has yet come up with a screening method that was completely fool proof, and given human nature no such screening method is likely to be found either.

Still, I think candidates for the priesthood and religious life go through a much more thorough process than (most of) those who wish to become teachers and childcare workers.

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#323477 - 05/28/09 07:32 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: StuartK]
aramis Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 702
Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
the NYC School systems are a perfect example of the downside of unions: the bad are protected by the union from just consequences.

In my youth, the legal age of sexual consent in Alaska was 16+, and 12+ could consent to someone within 3 years of their own age. Many teachers in the HS level were involved with former students; the ethics clause prohibited current students. The Union went to bat for several teachers who were sexually active with former students.

Finally, one got enough public press that the consent law was changed, making a 5 stage system
12+ 3 year limit.
16+ anyone not in authority over them
18+ anyone but Police, Medical, Fire, or Educational system employees.
21+ anyone.

Quite literally, this change resulted in a radical change in teacher behavior, since what had previously been an hard-to-fire-over ethics violation became a major felony.

To read about the various issues, search for Satch Carlson... fired for having sex with former students, reinstated, then fired again... and then the state changed the law.

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#323478 - 05/28/09 07:40 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Latin Catholic]
Converted Viking Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 444
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Latin Catholic
Einar,

This is exactly the type of abuse which would earlier have been swept under the carpet. Now it cannot be ignored.

But you are missing part of my point. Now that there is video evidence, it is also possible to react much more strongly because there is much less doubt about what happened.

Earlier, it was possible to dismiss claims of abuse because it was word against word and there was no clear evidence.


OK I see what you are saying. I am so angry about all of this whole stinking mess of rotten corruption in our church as well as any in other that I want to throw things right now. To be honest I don't think I can even be rational about it.

In Christ:
Einar


Edited by Converted Viking (05/28/09 07:44 PM)

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#323483 - 05/28/09 08:25 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Converted Viking]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
"To me, this is probably best explained by the fact that those who are inclined to abuse or exploit children are often inclined to seek careers or volunteer opportunities in which they have access to children."

Famous bank robber Willie Sutton was once asked why he robbed banks. He replied, "Because that's where they keep the money".

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#323484 - 05/28/09 08:31 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: StuartK]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5205
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
I think this topic is taking a tangent from the original post. The subject has now moved to the other topic where the abuse of children was the topic. I take responsibility for this move at the end of page 1. I think that if there is no more to be said about the situation in the Serbian Orthodox Church, it may be well to close this thread.

BOB

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#323486 - 05/28/09 08:38 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: theophan]
Father Anthony Offline

Administrator
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 3404
Loc: New York
Agreed! If this topic like any other in the forum can not stay on-topic, this thread risks closure. If you want to discuss secular abuse issues, start another thread in Town Hall. This will be the only warning.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
_________________________
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai

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#323496 - 05/28/09 11:33 PM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Father Anthony]
Fr David Straut Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 761
Loc: New Jersey
Chief of Serbian Orthodox Drug Rehab Center Fired

Chief of Serbian Orthodox drug rehab center fired
Wed May 27, 9:26 am ET

BELGRADE, Serbia – A Serbian Orthodox priest was removed as head of a church-backed drug rehabilitation center Wednesday, after a video broadcast on national television showed him beating a patient with a shovel.
Bishop Artemije said he removed Branislav Peranovic from his job leading the Crna Reka center in southern Serbia.
The bishop said the center would be closed if beatings recur, but he stopped short of shutting it down immediately as Serbian Orthodox Church elders had demanded.
Serbians were shocked by a video posted last week on weekly Vreme's Web site showing a man beating and kicking a patient who was being held down at the rehab center located on an isolated land plot owned by the Crna Reka monastery.
A second video broadcast Tuesday by Serbia's B92 television apparently shows Peranovic beating a patient with a shovel.
Earlier media reports have described patients living in poor conditions and completely isolated from the outside world.
Crna Reka priests have said the beatings are a necessary part of the therapy and are carried out with the consent of patients' parents.
The Serbian Orthodox Church has given no reaction to the videos, but a Holy Synod over the weekend ordered Artemije to shut down the center altogether.
However, Artemije — who insisted he was unaware of the beatings before seeing the video — said the center would remain open at the parents' request, but that Peranovic would face punishment.
The bishop appointed Peranovic's assistant, Father Dejan Jakovljevic, to run the facility. Jakovljevic has publicly approved of the beatings.

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#323533 - 05/29/09 08:48 AM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: Fr David Straut]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5205
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Quote:
(the) Holy Synod over the weekend ordered Artemije to shut down the center altogether.
However, Artemije . . . said the center would remain open . . .
The bishop appointed Peranovic's assistant, Father Dejan Jakovljevic, to run the facility. Jakovljevic has publicly approved of the beatings.


Father David:

Father bless!!

It looks like the same thing that has gone on in Ireland. Somehow the entire facility seems to need to be shut down, inlcuding, perhaps, the monastery iteself. And it may be that the eparchial bishop needs to appear before the Holy Synod and explain why he has decided to disobey the decision of his monastic superiors there.

BOB

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#323535 - 05/29/09 08:52 AM Re: More abuse !!! [Re: theophan]
Fr David Straut Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 761
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: theophan
Father David:

Father bless!!

It looks like the same thing that has gone on in Ireland. Somehow the entire facility seems to need to be shut down, inlcuding, perhaps, the monastery iteself. And it may be that the eparchial bishop needs to appear before the Holy Synod and explain why he has decided to disobey the decision of his monastic superiors there.

BOB

Dear Bob,

May the Lord bless you.

Yes, I agree.

Fr David

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