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Re: Reuniting [Re: Cmoore] #322844 05/24/09 03:05 AM
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Alice Offline
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Originally Posted by Cmoore
After reading some of the writing on the web site I posted I found page #3 to be somewhat offensive. Anyway here is a question I have been thinking about. If the Orthodox Church claims that it has not changed....Why is Holy Communion served on a spoon? Jesus did not feed the apostles His body and His blood together on a spoon. I do understand the reverence. It is just a question of change more than anything else. A contradiction of a statement about being unchanged. It is how I received my first holy communion so I am curious.


I don't think small 't' traditions (such as communion by spoon, etc.) are insinuated in that statement...it has more to do with the actual theological beliefs and praxis as established by the first church.

Alice

Re: Reuniting [Re: Alice] #322846 05/24/09 03:38 AM
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What I am really saying here is that as things are passed down they are changed. Just like the Bible, the stories were passed down through oral tradition and were changed along the way. Yes, inspired by God but as they were passed down changes were made based on the audience. Anyway I think we have more in common than some think and that much of the separation is based on words being twisted which basicly mean the same thing. I find more in common than different. I guess it really needs to be spelt out for me to see what is so different. In my mind it comes down to the issue of the Holy Father and human nature vs power struggle as the major block for unity.

Re: Reuniting [Re: chellow] #322849 05/24/09 03:55 AM
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chellow,
I was raised in the UGCC and married a Roman Catholic. I am researching my roots in Catholicism. I am enrolled in a Catholic ministry formation program. it is the first 3 years of training that a deacon would recieve in the Catholic Church. I am writing a paper for a class on church history. It is so far the most difficult paper I have had to write. My pastor suggested I write my paper on Photius. I have 3 of the 4 pages written and very little is on Photius himself. I have included current day issues as well as a reflective search into understanding my own roots in Catholicism. Now I just need to add Photius in to complete my paper. He seems like a nice guy to me. Okay, he is a Saint, ecumenical leader and a great teacher as well as a twice serving patriarch. (even if he did aquire the title of priest with in 6 days.) To me that just promotes how educated he was and I am sure he wasn't the first to be rushed through to take on a higher position with in the early church. (Just a guess there.)

Last edited by Cmoore; 05/24/09 04:01 AM.
Re: Reuniting [Re: chellow] #322851 05/24/09 04:58 AM
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Thanks for the links. I looked at all of them and saved only 3. There is one that breaks down the churches but includes Luterans and Anglicans which are not in any way considered apostolic as the site claims them to be. I think it is the 6th from the top. I didn't look to see who sponsors the site but thought I would let you know. The rest were Great!

Re: Ecumenical services [Re: Cmoore] #322872 05/24/09 12:42 PM
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Which Greek Catholic Church? You need to pick from among the Ukrainians, the Melkites, the Romanians, the Russians, the Ruthenians, the Italo-Albanians, the Belarusians and probably a number of others I have overlooked.

A broader question--why should not Photios be honored in the Festal Menaion? He died in communion with Rome, you know, and did great service to the Church.

Re: Ecumenical services [Re: StuartK] #322873 05/24/09 01:01 PM
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AHHHHHHHHHHHHH there is some life here! You don't know what I have written. I believe if my information is correct that he is honored on Feb 6th throughout the East. That is why I didn't pick a church. What is a Festal Menaion?

I just deleted a post that was going to comment on the lack of assistance from those that possess knowledge in this community. The ONLY thing that keeps me coming back is that there is a wealth of knowledge here. St. Photius shared his knowledge. It is my understanding that he was brilliant.

Re: Ecumenical services [Re: Cmoore] #322875 05/24/09 01:07 PM
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Cmoore Offline OP
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ooops this question belongs on the other post. Sorry! Thought I would point out my error 1st.

Re: Reuniting [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #322876 05/24/09 01:14 PM
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Father Serge,

Does the Greek Catholic Church (the majority at least) honor St. Photius on Feb. 6th?


I don't know which churches would have a feast day and in which he would not. My guess is the entire East would honor him.

I am almost done with my paper. I must thank the Lord for His guidance because I have no idea how I have been able to put this together.


Re: Reuniting [Re: Cmoore] #322890 05/24/09 07:49 PM
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Answering the original topic, Cmoore, the only insurmountable difference is the scope of the Pope.

As you know both sides are episcopal (have bishops) and in both churches some bishops have rank over others. The sticking point: is the Pope's office of divine origin as the channel of the church's infallibility (both sides believe in church infallibility) and with jurisdiction everywhere, over the heads of other bishops (as if he were the diocesan bishop), or is it simply a perfectly good man-made rank of the (as both sides believe) divinely instituted episcopate for the good order of the church?

(The latter understanding of course is the Orthodox one of the papacy; they commemorate pre-schism Pope saints as Popes.)

Everything else is cultural, local abuses (liberal RC silliness) or otherwise can be explained away (misunderstandings for example).

So as Frankie Valli sang, the two sides are so close, so close and yet so far.

I don't have an answer other than one side would have to give in on that one issue for union to happen, which would mean one side ceasing to be what it has been.

As each side claims to be the one true church, that seems unlikely.

Re: Reuniting [Re: Cmoore] #322903 05/24/09 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Cmoore
Thanks for the links. I looked at all of them and saved only 3. There is one that breaks down the churches but includes Luterans and Anglicans which are not in any way considered apostolic as the site claims them to be. I think it is the 6th from the top. I didn't look to see who sponsors the site but thought I would let you know. The rest were Great!


That site is from an Oriental Orthodox church “Church of the East”. Some of the Patriarch of the Oriental Orthodox churches have already stated that there is no reason that we shouldn’t be reunited.

There is a debate that some Lutheran and Anglican may have valid bishops due to ordination from some Old Catholics, but if any do exist they will sone be gone due to Ordination of woman bishops in all three churches.

Re: Reuniting [Re: chellow] #322929 05/25/09 01:51 AM
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Exactly! Chellow

Re: Reuniting [Re: Cmoore] #322930 05/25/09 01:54 AM
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"the only insurmountable difference is the scope of the Pope. "

The Pope has a scope? I didn't even know he liked to hunt.

Re: Reuniting [Re: Cmoore] #322931 05/25/09 02:00 AM
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I have the Unity part of my paper done. I am left with the main topic which is St. Photios/ Photius. What is so difficult is that there are different views. I am writting a paper for the Catholic Church and it is easy to just agree with some of the Catholic views I have found. I also know that there are Catholic Churches in the East that do honor him as a Saint. That means there is more than one side to the story. What is so funny is that I have found so many different views on Photius and I am trying to piece them all together. I was able to look at some of his writings which were summaries of many different literary works. They can be found under Bibliotheke. Anyway I want to turn in a paper that has information that the teacher is unaware of so I am doing most of my research through Orthodox sites. I am almost finished. I will let everyone know if she likes my paper or not.

Re: Reuniting [Re: Cmoore] #322933 05/25/09 02:45 AM
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There is only one academically respectable perspective, which is accepted by Catholic and Orthodox scholars alike, and that is found in the work of Father Francis Dvornik, OP, The Photian Schism. All earlier work has been superseded; all subsequent works derive from his. Though the book is out of print and difficult to find, unless you have read it, you have not done the research essential to finish this part of your paper.

Re: Reuniting [Re: StuartK] #322942 05/25/09 04:15 AM
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Francis Dvornik is quoted in the book I am reading on St. Photius. The author acknowledges extensive quotes from his book "The Photian Schism." This book is from an Orthodox private library. I was lucky enough to have someone so kind to help me in my research and let me borrow this book. I also have The Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. I only needed 4 pages so these books go into great depth.

Last edited by Cmoore; 05/25/09 04:16 AM.
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