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All fall short of the glory of God. But I do not believe that the Archbishop was honoring Hillary, but honoring a policy of the United States.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

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Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by DAVIDinVA
The death penalty is an intrinsic evil.


Wrong. The Death Penalty can be applied morally if a society is unable to protect itself from someone even if they are incarcerated.

Abortion can never, never, never be morally justified. It is an intrinsic evil. The two are not moral equivalents.


In this day and age society is able to protect itself from offenders. Even JPII said the death penalty was no longer needed.

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Originally Posted by DAVIDinVA
The death penalty is an intrinsic evil. There is nothing "pro-life" about killing someone. Period.


My friend, what is written in the Torah?

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If everyone would reread my post, you would realize that as acting 'ethnarch' (for lack of a better word), Archbishop Demetrios gave this award to Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton.

If you would reread my post (in response to Michael Thomas' question), you would also realize that there is a strange and anomalous thing going on in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, where the Archbishop has something of a dual role--a religious one and a secular one (a carryover from Ottoman days a century ago)...

It is wierd, I admit, but atleast let's put this subject into that perspective.

This thread has gone off topic!

*For those who still harbor anger and possibly hatred in their hearts towards our former President, how about letting it go? If you cannot, please start a new thread.

*For those who harbor anger and possibly hatred in their hearts towards our present President, I also suggest letting it go and also starting a new thread or adding to a thread which already exists about him.

There is a fine line between objective, constructive political debate and passion.

Alice, Moderator

For those who did not read my post on page 1, this is what an ethnarch is, and though we don't call him that, Arch. Demetrios, is in essence, just that:

*(Ethnarch (from Greek: Εθνάρχης) refers generally to political leadership over a common ethnic group or heterogeneous kingdom.

Ottoman Empire

Rather different was the case of minority community ethnarchs, especially within the Islamic Ottoman Empire (political successor to Byzantium) that were recognized as legitimate entities (millet) and thus allowed to be heard by the government through an officially acknowledged representative, though without political persona.

When the Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II decided to give such dialogue a more formal nature, the logical choice for the major Christian communities was the (Greek Orthodox) Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople..)







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Terry, it is against the law, and we prosecuted Japanese war criminals for using waterboarding as a form of torture. Former Presidential candidate John McCain said it was torture. Just because there are other worse forms of torture that leave more permament bodily damage does not mean that waterboarding is not torture.


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Dear Lance,

I just gave a warning to continue this in another thread!

This thread is going to be locked because it has gone off topic. Please feel free to discuss these issues into new threads.

Alice, Moderator

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Originally Posted by DAVIDinVA
Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by DAVIDinVA
The death penalty is an intrinsic evil.

Wrong. The Death Penalty can be applied morally if a society is unable to protect itself from someone even if they are incarcerated.

Abortion can never, never, never be morally justified. It is an intrinsic evil. The two are not moral equivalents.

In this day and age society is able to protect itself from offenders. Even JPII said the death penalty was no longer needed.

The deacon is correct. The Church does not teach that the death penalty is an intrinsic evil. One may support the use of the death penalty in appropriate circumstances and remain a good Catholic. One may not support abortion or the taking of innocent life (from conception to natural death) and remain a Catholic in good standing.

As to JPII's teaching on the death penalty, it is nuanced. He did not in any way teach that the death penalty was an intrinsic evil. His appeal was, rather, to mercy.

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Originally Posted by lanceg
Terry, it is against the law, and we prosecuted Japanese war criminals for using waterboarding as a form of torture. Former Presidential candidate John McCain said it was torture. Just because there are other worse forms of torture that leave more permament bodily damage does not mean that waterboarding is not torture.

One here must first define what torture is. Waterboarding, for example, can be torture and it can be merely uncomfortable. Some in the current debate like to compare the waterboarding used by the CIA to that used by the Japanese in WWII. But such a comparison is ludicrous as the techniques are hugely different, rendering such a comparison irresponsible (like comparing apples and oranges). Until there is a common definition of what constitutes torture there will not be an agreement on what techniques can legitimately be considered torture. The discussion needs to be rooted in fact and not emotion.

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