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#323065 - 05/26/09 12:26 AM
Kyrie Eleison in various rites
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Member
Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 1052
Loc: SF Bay, CA USA
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I was made aware again during the Holy Father's pilgrimage to the Holy Land of the use of "Kyrie Eleison" in the Mass and Divine Liturgy. I'd like to know more about the retention of this specific Greek phrase in not only the Latin Rite but also in other liturgies which are in various other liturgical languages or vernaculars. We frequently pray in our Roman Catholic churches in phrases in Latin, in particular the Agnus Dei, but I don't know of any other praying we do in Greek. Other rites when I've heard the "Kyrie Eleison" were also not Greek language liturgies.
I'd like to be steered to more information on the background of this. It seems like one place in our liturgies where there is at times praying a prayer in one language regardless of rite, or Church, Catholic or Orthodox.
-Marylouise
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#323067 - 05/26/09 12:33 AM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: likethethief]
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Member
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 702
Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
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in the Ruthenian use of the Hours, it is common to split the 40 "Lord Have Mercy" chant into 4 decades
Lord, Have Mercy x10
Kyrie eleison x10
Señor, ten piedad x10
Gospodi Pomiluij x10
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#323068 - 05/26/09 12:41 AM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: aramis]
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Moderator
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Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 10206
Loc: USA
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I thought that the Kyrie Eleison was the one Greek phrase that was always used in the Latin rite of the Catholic Church--(before the Novus Ordo?) Columbia Encyclopedia: Kyrie eleison
Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Columbia EncyclopediaKyrie eleison (kĭr'ēā' əlā'ēsŏn', –sən) [Gr.,=Lord, have mercy], in the Roman Catholic Church, prayer of the Mass coming after the introit, the only ordinary part of the traditional liturgy said not in Latin but in Greek. It has nine lines: “Lord have mercy (thrice), Christ have mercy (thrice), Lord have mercy (thrice).” As the first invariable hymn, the Kyrie is often the first piece in a musical Mass. An English version is used in the Anglican liturgy and in the reformed Roman Catholic vernacular liturgy. The phrase Kyrie eleison used by itself is, of course, common in the Eastern rites, but without the phrase Christe eleison. The corresponding prayer in the Russian Orthodox church is often called a Kyrie.
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#323076 - 05/26/09 01:59 AM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: Alice]
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Member
Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 705
Loc: PA
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I thought that the Kyrie Eleison was the one Greek phrase that was always used in the Latin rite of the Catholic Church--(before the Novus Ordo?) Columbia Encyclopedia: Kyrie eleison
Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Columbia EncyclopediaKyrie eleison (kĭr'ēā' əlā'ēsŏn', –sən) [Gr.,=Lord, have mercy], in the Roman Catholic Church, prayer of the Mass coming after the introit, the only ordinary part of the traditional liturgy said not in Latin but in Greek. It has nine lines: “Lord have mercy (thrice), Christ have mercy (thrice), Lord have mercy (thrice).” As the first invariable hymn, the Kyrie is often the first piece in a musical Mass. An English version is used in the Anglican liturgy and in the reformed Roman Catholic vernacular liturgy. The phrase Kyrie eleison used by itself is, of course, common in the Eastern rites, but without the phrase Christe eleison. The corresponding prayer in the Russian Orthodox church is often called a Kyrie. It is also used in Greek (optional) or English in both Rite One and Rite Two of the 1979 Episcopal Book of Common Prayer. It is the only Greek used in that liturgy. The Trisagion is also an option but it is not identified by that name.
Edited by Thomas the Seeker (05/26/09 02:01 AM)
Edit Reason: greater clarity
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#323175 - 05/26/09 09:06 PM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: Michael_Thoma]
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Member
Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 4679
Loc: Georgia
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Alice,
The Kyrie in Greek is still used in the Novus Ordo, quite often I find. It's "the norm" at my home parish.
However, one difference is that, in the Traditional Mass, there are three Kyrie Eleisons followed by three Christe Eleisons followed by three Kyrie Eleisons; the Novus Ordo allows (as usual, ggrrrr) a variety of options, I believe, to shorten this to just one Kyrie, one Christe, and one Kyrie.
In fact, a number of things can be done with the Kyrie in the Novus Ordo, like "You were sent to heal the contrite. Lord have mercy," etc.
As someone touched on above, the Trisagion is used during Holy Week (at the Presanctified on Good Friday, is it?) and is chanted by two different scholas, one schola chanting the entire Trisagion in Greek and the other chanting the entire prayer in Latin.
Alexis
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#323266 - 05/27/09 04:43 PM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: Logos - Alexis]
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Member
Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 1052
Loc: SF Bay, CA USA
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Thanks for your responses but from them I'm not sure I was clear about my question. Let me try again.
The "Kyrie Eleison" is as far as I know the only Greek we retain, on some occasions, in the Latin Rite RC, as well as retain in the ECCs, and Orthodox, even when like the Latin Rite RC, Greek isn't their liturgical language nor their vernacular.
What I am looking for is any information about why all our Catholic Churches East and West, and the Orthodox, apparently have all retained this one prayer in the Greek form (on some occasions at least). I don't see anything else we all literally pray the same, even if only on some occasions. I think there must be something specific in Church history behind this one retention in the Greek language we all share.
-Marylouise
Edited by Mlouise (05/27/09 04:44 PM)
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#323276 - 05/27/09 06:23 PM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: likethethief]
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Member
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 702
Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
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We don't all use it the same.
The Roman is "Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison, Kyrie Eleison." when sung. When spoken, each is preceeded by an introduction. It is often done in English.
In the Ruthenian use that I've seen, it's just Kyrie Eleison, and only as part of the dismissal prayers of the hours; it's not even in the official books that way!
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#323283 - 05/27/09 07:15 PM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: likethethief]
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Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 920
Loc: Florida
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Marylouise,
The "Extraordinary" form of the Latin Rite retains one other prayer, the Trisagion, in Greek. It is recited/chanted once a year on Good Friday.
The Byzantine Rite likewise retains the Trisagion in Greek--it is recited/chanted during the Bishop's Divine Liturgy.
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#323294 - 05/27/09 10:05 PM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: likethethief]
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5568
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
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The "Kyrie Eleison" is . . . the only Greek we retain, . . . in the Latin Rite RC, . . .
What I am looking for is any information about why all our Catholic Churches East and West, and the Orthodox, apparently have all retained this one prayer in the Greek form Mlouise: As far as the Latin Church is concerned, this remnant is a holdover from the early Church when the Liturgy was served in Greek, even in the city of Rome. The use of Latin came about later. You'd have to do some encyclopedia work to find out when the changeover began and was completed except for the Kyrie. As far as its use in the Greek Orthodox Church, it's simply continuity. The Slavic Orthodox and and Eastern Catholic Churches, it's a remnant of their liturgical patrimony coming from the Great Church of Constantinople that sent missionaries to these lands. The Russian Church, for example, still greets bishops with a Greek hymn of greeting since the Metropolitan was originally sent from Constantinople. BOB
Edited by theophan (05/27/09 10:08 PM)
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#323296 - 05/27/09 10:29 PM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: theophan]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6923
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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"You'd have to do some encyclopedia work to find out when the changeover began and was completed except for the Kyrie."
Latin became the language of the Roman liturgy around the year 381, under Pope Damasus I. Ironically, he wanted the liturgy celebrated in the language of the people (lingua vulgaris, or vulgate). Damasus was the first vernacularist Pope.
Prior to this time, Latin was used principally in the Church of Africa and the Church of Milan.
By the way, Hebrew is also retained in both the Roman and Byzantine liturgies--"Alleluia", "Amen", "Sabaoth" and several others, retained untranslated, perhaps because there is no good equivalent for them in another language, perhaps as recognition that Christ was a Jew.
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#323328 - 05/28/09 12:29 PM
Re: Kyrie Eleison in various rites
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 139
Loc: Maryland, USA
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I'm Antiochian - Western Rite and we do the Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison, Kyrie Eleison (3x) during our services.
abby
<*)))><
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