We live in terrible times. I recall many, many years ago, that devout people were quite upset over our media etc., having a more accepting attitude towards homosexuality. They believed that there is an age, when a boy or girl can be easily swayed in their sexual orientation.

Well what they feared has come to pass. I truly believe that had some families I know not been as conservative as they were, that the possiblity exists that their children at the age of fourteen and older, might have been swayed into a sexually deviant life style. I say this, because I know the influences, in school and outside of school, (especially in my part of the woods), and we have only ourselves to blame.

The Evangelicals such as Don Wildon, Pat Robertson, etc. did everything to stop the trend...but where were the Catholics and Orthodox?

I truly believe that the excessive amount of homosexuals existing today, is a phenomenon of our age, as it was in pagan times...which only goes to prove, that when one turns from God, then God turns from man. Homosexuality is the result.

Zenovia

Clearly this woman did not get the memo!

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=interview&div=29

As to the poor fellow in the article, he has only taken on the forms of Catholicism, not its substance...in part because he has discovered an "alternative Catholic" path through dissenting authors and activists. Not surpisingly, he sexualizes everything, including his "attraction" to and relationship with our Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ - especially through another stupid feminized Sacred Heart picture. I dare not call it an icon...I have seen some Sacred Heart icons and images that are much worthier as sacred art. The one on the site is an unfortunately common display of artistry awash in religious sentimentality, but not faith.

Which brings me to my point.

The guy from Texas is a religious sentimentalist and eroticist, not an adult convert to Catholicism. (Were I still a Latin, I believe that a case could be made for the invalidity of his baptism, despite the accuracy of the ceremonial.) As an adult, one must have the intention to enter the faith of the Church. This guy has entered an alternative universe, propped up by flimsy dissenting authors and pretty religious pictures all of which he has managed to sexualize, but not the Catholic faith. What's more, he completely confuses the Christian view of eros with the pagan idolatry of religious eroticism, which apparently is his true "faith". Everything in this article hopelessly points to "moi, my religious feelings and me", which should have been its actual title. There is nothing about entering the faith out of any conviction as to its historic claims of veracity and the life-changing power of the Gospel. He exists sentimentally in his rather confused and electic grandmother's world, and the image of the "Sacred Heart", which factors so prominently in the article, is an appropriate representation of that confused and overly erotic world.

I actually pity him, since he has been misled into committing a grave sacrilege. (By whom is an important question.) He has been deluded (and deluded himself) into thinking that by "entering" the Catholic Church, no intention to remove himself from a life steeped in grave personal sin is necessary. He in fact doesn't recognize it as grave personal sin, a fact which, apparently, the parish community to which he belongs actively reinforces. He does not therefore recognize any obligation to change his lifestyle and enter the courageous struggle for personal holiness while being challenged by the cross of SSAD. I pray that God will somehow effect a miraculous transformation in him before he dies at an early age, which seems to be the lot of many homosexual men.

Lord, Divine Physician of souls, have mercy on us. Most Holy Theotokos, pray for this man and help him to be truly healed!

Let us ask the Lord to give us HIs love and to show that love to others without prejudice

Yes - and let us not be so loving as to be unkind to others by withholding the truth from them that they need to hear for the sake of their own - and our - salvation and freedom in Christ. Jesus went out among the sinners He loved, such as prostitutes and tax collectors, not to condone their lifestyle, but to deliver them from it. Could less be expected of His disciples?

I say to you that prostitutes and tax collectors will be entering the Kingdom of Heavenm before Scribes and Pharisees.

I think we must be careful about too much self-righteousness and yes, where there is hatred and prejudice spoken against gays and lesbians in Church and out, we must speak against that if we wish to be consistant as Christians

I think that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read in my life. I hope that our Faith is much more then just a carbon copy of the likes of Robertson and Falwell or we are in deep trouble. But OUr Lord said He would be with His CHurch till the end not the sects of Robertson and Falwell.

Brian

I attend Tridentine Latin Mass and Ukrainian Rite Divine Liturgy, and I can assure you that while I've heard homosexuality referred to as sin in both churches, I've yet to hear anyone call the faithful to hate homosexuals.

Since you list yourself as a member of the OCA I suggest you read your own church's statements on homosexuality, rather then attempting to confuse the issue of whether homosexuality is a sin or not.

True - but nothing is implied in that passage of the Gospels that prostitutes and tax collectors remained as they were after encountering Christ. Is that what you intend to assert? Was Jesus there to affirm their sinful lifestyle or to lovingly call them to repentance?

The sin of the Scribes and Pharisees was in their inability to acknowledge their own sin and their blindness in failing to recognize how their own additions to and interpretation of the Mosaic laws kept themselves and others from coming to recognize and follow the Messiah in repentance. How does that apply here? Are you asserting that our churches are wrong in their discernment as to the sinfulness of homosexual behavior? Do you offer a "new gospel" other than the one we have received? If so, how to you call yourself an "Orthodox Christian"?

And what, in your own mind, constitutes self-righteousness? You are quick to throw out condemnations based on little else than your interest in defending a lifestyle that is contrary to the teachings of Sacred Scripture and both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. It is you who are playing judge and jury in this case, not I, attributing pernicious motives to me and others. There is no "hatred or prejudice" in my post or in anyone's that I have read here or in the pastoral response of our churches to homosexuals and all those who struggle with SSAD.

Whatever your anguished logic may be in defending the homosexual lifestyle of your friends or others, the incontrovertible truth is that you stand quite outside the Christian tradition in this regard. The misapplication of texts on "Scribes and Pharisees", casting aspersions on others such as accusing them of hatred, prejudice and self-righteousness only demonstrates that you cannot engage thoughtfully on the issue beyond the application of labels.

Edeb, I am sure we will not agree but I did see a bit of self-righteousness in your post where you made it your point to describe this man's Faith as sentimental and false. One cannot see into someone's soul. Only OUr Lord can.
Also, one cannot ignore the fact that in the Church also, one hear's derogatory words and stories aout gay and lesbian people. I have witnessed it and I'm sure you have as well. I was just saying that it is also our job as Christians to speak our against such prejudice if we call ourselves Christians. We cannot hide behind the teaching of the Church to support hatred of gays who are marginalized people to begin with. That is also wrong and the Catholic Church has spoken against such prejudice. I do not say that was your motive. We all fall and fall short. I did not mean to accuse you most of all.

Brian,

Thank you for your post. I have no doubt as to his sincerity of religious belief, if that is how you define "faith". But can we honestly say that his homoeroticism applied to his relationship with Christ can be reconciled with the true Faith of the Apostles and Martyrs? Look, there are those in the Orthodox and Catholic Churches that struggle with homosexuality and SSAD. The fact that they struggle - even if they fall - is a testament to their Courage (you know why I capitalize that, right?). To my mind, such individuals who bear such a terrible cross will enter heaven before me with my falls through much smaller temptations.

But this guy takes things more than two steps further - not only does he reject outright the teachings of Catholicism, he projects his disordered passions onto Christ and calls it "faith". It begs the question: into just what "faith" was he truly baptized?

I say he has no Faith except a vague sentimental religious attachment to his own sad and broken addictions. I hope he finds healing, but I cannot acknowledge his beliefs as anything Holy, Catholic or Apostolic. That is not judgementalism, it is called Christian Discernment 101.

As for stories from the pulpit, I have honestly never encountered any, and I have attended many "traditional" parishes in my day. I have heard warnings about the gay social agenda re: the redefinition of marriage and family, but that is not the same thing. Vulgar stories about homosexuals and lesbians have no place in the church, anymore than those about prostitutes and others. But we should not regard sharing the truth on Orthodox and Catholic morality as out of place in our sanctuaries. People need to hear the truth from its "pillar and bullwark": the Church.

If not from the Church, where can they turn?

Gordo

Let us also lovingly and firmly speak out against false teachings that are destroying the Spiritual lives of others and not be intimidating by false charges of pharisaism when we do.

CDL

Well said.

I actually read the man's essay. It made some good points, and it made some lousy ones, but the main point was at the end. Despite the contradictions he feels within the Church, he also feels that God is calling to him in all of his being, and he is willing to respond to that call.

It does not mean his errors are now truth.

It means that he is willing to respond to the call of God, to come to God by being a member of His Church. That is the crucial point, and the rest of his salvation is up to God's grace which (I hope and pray) he will co-operate with. Again, that doesn't mean his errors are right; his errors are errors. It means that he is willing to be in the house of the Lord --the Church-- and follow Jesus.

The Church is a spiritual hospital wherein the Divine Doctor, Jesus Christ, heals souls. When Jesus walked the earth, He was criticized for spending time with sinners. And Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mark 2:17)

-- John

John I re read his essay and somethings became clearer to me. I can't say I am excited on the face of it but to me being a Christian is a process a journey. However as Jesus said who he came for as it read it it is sinners the saved did not need him. I hope that as he ages he will grow in faith and realise what it is he has joined a path that has clear teaching and that in fact there is no picking and choosing of these teachings. If he truly believes he can select his beliefs like choosing food at a smorgasboard then he is deluded and only he suffers.

Amen !

Say what you will about the man's theology - after reading his essay, I think he would be a lot of fun to have a conversation with. And I think Jesus likes him too.

And before anyone says it, yes, I think he's totally wrong about a lot of things. But at least he's being open about it. He just seems like someone I would enjoy sitting down and having a cup of coffee and a long argument with.)