The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Irenaeus23, Al Masihi, Seavila777, MZbor, Lisa Korovainytsia
5563 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 67 guests, and 359 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Portable Icon Screen
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,609
Posts411,057
Members5,563
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #324332
06/08/09 02:15 PM
06/08/09 02:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,565
Glasgow, Scotland
O
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member
Our Lady's slave  Offline
Member
O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,565
Glasgow, Scotland
I have always asked , and received, permission to receive Antidoron when I go to Kiss the Cross at the end of Liturgy in an Orthodox Church - ROCOR

Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: Our Lady's slave] #324338
06/08/09 03:53 PM
06/08/09 03:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Falls Church, VA
S
StuartK Offline
Member
StuartK  Offline
Member
S

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Falls Church, VA
I've never asked. The few times I did not go to get any, some nice Baba or Yaya came by and forced some into my hands. In this country, with so many mixed families, as well as non-Orthodox visitors, the antedoron has come to be seen as a way of sharing a "spiritual communion" with those outside the Orthodox Church. This is the case, even in many ROCOR parishes.

Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: StuartK] #324350
06/08/09 06:58 PM
06/08/09 06:58 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,149
Washington, PA
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Fr. Deacon Lance  Offline
Moderator
Member

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,149
Washington, PA
I was thinking more Greek Old Calendarists would be of this mind. Most of them don't consider ROCOR to be all that traditional anymore.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: Hesychios] #324378
06/08/09 10:08 PM
06/08/09 10:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 994
Las Vegas
dochawk Offline
Member
dochawk  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 994
Las Vegas
Originally Posted by Hesychios
As I recall from the BCC, we occasionally had antidoran at the end of liturgy. Father would bless us at the ambo and the altar servers would be there with a bowl full.


In our BCC parish, every month or two we have the Antidoran at dismssal, but no wine. One altar server holds the basket of Antidoran, while another holds a basket to collect donations for the poor/homeless.

hawk

Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #324385
06/09/09 01:09 AM
06/09/09 01:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
L
likethethief Offline
Member
likethethief  Offline
Member
L

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
I think some are confusing Zapivka: bread and wine used to wash down the Holy Gifts immediately after communing; and Antidoron: blessed bread left over from the Proskomedia given out after the Ambon Prayer.


That's interesting. Thanks for mentioning that. Next time I'm able to go to Divine Liturgy at my BCC I will have to try to watch but I think in my parish once the bread and wine are set out on the side table by the Deacon or alter server before communion nothing changes on that table between then and the conclusion of Liturgy so it would still be the same when we pass by the second time. I hope I can remember to look and to ask next time I'm there. It certainly appeared to be the same on Pentecost the other day.

I'm unlikely in the near future to be at a Divine Liturgy at the Orthodox Church I go to, only a Vigil.

Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #324393
06/09/09 01:43 AM
06/09/09 01:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
L
likethethief Offline
Member
likethethief  Offline
Member
L

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA

Originally Posted by StuartK
In this country, with so many mixed families, as well as non-Orthodox visitors, the antedoron has come to be seen as a way of sharing a "spiritual communion" with those outside the Orthodox Church. This is the case, even in many ROCOR parishes.


And this is also my impression, from the parishes I have actually visited, Russian and Greek.

So, we assume it's given as a sign of welcoming, of sharing a "spiritual communion", which our "Baptist Minister" experienced it as, as did I on those occasions. At the same time is it what we in the West would call a lack of proper catechesis that results in the lay people sharing this if indeed the intent is that it only be for those who are Orthodox and have kept the fast etc.? In the West it might be called creating "scandal"-- behaving in a way that could lead another to sin (which I think maybe is very Western thinking). I'm not asking to be judgmental in any way but to maybe get a better insight into how Eastern thinking might see/understand this deviation from Tradition.

Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: likethethief] #324401
06/09/09 04:41 AM
06/09/09 04:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Falls Church, VA
S
StuartK Offline
Member
StuartK  Offline
Member
S

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Falls Church, VA
There is no requirement to keep the fast to receive the antedoron. In fact, the custom arose because so few Orthodox were receiving communion, for which the antedoron is but a pale substitute. In the U.S., things are changing, but abroad, on a typical Sunday, only a handful of adults receive communion at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy--but everybody receives antedoron. In the States, with frequent communion on its way to becoming "normal" among the Orthodox, antedoron may look redundant, but I expect the custom--for there is no requirement for any church to provide antedoron--is evolving in its meaning and purpose.

Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: ebed melech] #324537
06/10/09 03:49 PM
06/10/09 03:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
L
likethethief Offline
Member
likethethief  Offline
Member
L

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
Part 3
I see our Baptist Minister has posted his update about his visit this past Sunday to Saint Joseph Orthodox Church in Houston! He's got a wonderful intuitive understanding of so much, and no doubt the Holy Spirit is active in this man!

Me thinks he was there for Pentecost, if it was this past Sunday, tho he makes no mention of that.

I especially appreciated this reflection:
"I was also moved by something that happened...As the priest walked down the aisle... people reached out and touched the hem of his garment... the sort of thing that many Protestants would misunderstand and perhaps be suspicious of...Remember that the Orthodox Church embraces mystery. So if you are visiting, it is best to be humble and always think the best of what you see. I likened this act to touching the mantle of the Torah... connecting yourself humbly to such a large mystery. I found myself thinking of the woman who wanted only to touch the hem of the robe of Jesus."

(Emphasis in the quote is mine- such a wise comment!)

How much he has blessed us with his reflections! I know they're being shared all over. If you go back and look at the previous three posts (the first visit got two posts) you'll see there are lots of comments that have been posted. I've run into his blog referenced on other Catholic sites and am sure on Orthodox.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

Last edited by Mlouise; 06/10/09 03:52 PM.
Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: StuartK] #324542
06/10/09 05:42 PM
06/10/09 05:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
L
likethethief Offline
Member
likethethief  Offline
Member
L

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
Originally Posted by StuartK
There is no requirement to keep the fast to receive the antedoron. In fact, the custom arose because so few Orthodox were receiving communion, for which the antedoron is but a pale substitute.


I'd understood it as such until I read various places including on sites of a number of Orthodox Churches (in the US probably) that the fast is required. Go figure. I probably shouldn't have included it in my post since it seems to vary.

Quote
In the States, with frequent communion on its way to becoming "normal" among the Orthodox, antedoron may look redundant, but I expect the custom--for there is no requirement for any church to provide antedoron--is evolving in its meaning and purpose.


I am constantly evolving, too-- to try to know what's going on ;-) My husband plays Sudoku. I try to understand the mind of the Church. Keeps the grey cells growing in late middle age. Sorry, I know this is a serious topic.... still it can make one feel a bit loopy at times... and I'm not even fasting, oh wait, I am, it's Wednesday :-)

Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: likethethief] #324978
06/15/09 09:16 AM
06/15/09 09:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
I
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Irish Melkite  Offline
Global Moderator
Member
I

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
A blog entry by Father James, pastor of the parish that Rev Atkinson visited, together with a photo of the two and our own Joe/ByzantineTX

The Real Live Preacher Comes to St. Joseph's!

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: ebed melech] #325520
06/23/09 05:49 AM
06/23/09 05:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 147
Maryland, USA
A
amberpep Offline
Member
amberpep  Offline
Member
A

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 147
Maryland, USA
Oh ebed .... this is beautiful. I am going to try to print out a copy .... thank you for sharing this ....
abby
<*)))><

Re: A Baptist Minister's First Experience of a Byzantine Liturgy [Re: amberpep] #326402
07/01/09 11:14 AM
07/01/09 11:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
L
likethethief Offline
Member
likethethief  Offline
Member
L

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
SF Bay, CA USA
Real Live Preacher's update. See also his fourth posting reflection on his Orthodox Sabbatical Sundays.

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2018. All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2
(Release build 20180918)
Page Time: 0.018s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 2.0352 MB (Peak: 2.2465 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-12-11 15:27:49 UTC