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#326610 - 07/04/09 04:06 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: crule]
griego catolico Online   content
Member

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 599
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: crule
The USCCB have a diaconal handbook or publication on their website. If you dig deep enough in there it discusses bi-ritual deacons - and stated that even if an Eastern Catholic deacon were granted bi-ritual faculties, he is only to exercise those duties that are appropriate to his own rite...

Meaning that even if you are bi-ritual, you won't be doing any marriages, baptisms, or funerals in the Latin church you serve.

Here's the applicable quote from that document (p43):
Quote:
Bi-Ritual Permanent Deacons
When a permanent deacon of the Eastern Catholic Churches is
granted bi-ritual faculties to assist in the Roman Church, the theo-
logical understanding of the sacraments and the order of the dia-
conate in the Eastern Catholic Churches is to be respected.
Practically, a deacon of the Eastern Catholic Churches is not to be
allowed to solemnize marriages in the Roman Church.


This is from: http://www.usccb.org/deacon/DeaconDirectory.pdf



Well, this has left me confused. confused

If a Byzantine deacon is given faculties to assist as a deacon in the Roman church; ergo, wouldn't that include all that a Roman deacon can do?

I personally know a Byzantine deacon who was granted bi-ritual faculties and recently baptized a family member according to the Roman-rite, since the family is primarily Roman Catholic.

Does that mean this baptism is invalid?



Edited by griego catolico (07/04/09 04:21 PM)

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#326615 - 07/04/09 05:36 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: griego catolico]
Apotheoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1815
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Just another reason to avoid the concept of bi-ritual clergy.

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#326617 - 07/04/09 05:43 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: griego catolico]
Athanasius The L Offline
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 987
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: griego catolico
Well, this has left me confused. confused

If a Byzantine deacon is given faculties to assist as a deacon in the Roman church; ergo, wouldn't that include all that a Roman deacon can do?

I personally know a Byzantine deacon who was granted bi-ritual faculties and recently baptized a family member according to the Roman-rite, since the family is primarily Roman Catholic.

Does that mean this baptism is invalid?



Absolutely not.

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#326618 - 07/04/09 05:55 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: griego catolico]
aramis Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
Griego:

Biritual doesn't mean changing enrollment. It means being granted permission to apply one's faculties to a wider context as a routine matter.

Now, a Biritual deacon who was incardinated into a Roman diocese, he would most likely then also be granted those specific faculties by the new bishop. Most biritual eastern deacons remain incardinated in their eastern diocese; most biritual Roman deacons remain incardinated in their Roman diocese. It requires three people to agree to change one's incardination: The losing bishop, the gaining bishop, and the cleric in question. It's not common, and it's not supposed to be common, for a deacon to change incardination.

And as to baptisms: Any trinitarian baptism using correct wording and form is valid, and the baptized intends to be joined to Christ by baptism.
Eastern deacons have the faculty to baptize, but almost never use it... because in the east, Baptism is immediately followed by chrismation (confirmation), which requires a priest or bishop.

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#326630 - 07/04/09 09:36 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: ebed melech]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 6898
Loc: Kansas
Quote:
So if I participate in a Catholic catechetical conference I must contact my bishop to request specific permission to serve at the Mass with the local Latin ordinary? Or when I participated in the regional Mass at the National Shrine with a group I was escorting at the March for Life, I needed to contact my bishop to serve? Seems a bit excessive...such permission is not even required of priests.

I think that there is a difference between infrequent participation in an event and more regular activities at a Latin parish.


Perhaps you misunderstood my answer, which was in response to Our Lady's Slave's very specific question about sacramental service outside of that allowed in one's particular Church. The response had nothing to do with conferences or other miscellania, but solely with requests for Greek Catholic deacons to perform sacramental duties and rites that they do not enjoy a blessing for in their own particular Churches (baptisms or marriages in a Latin church). They simply cannot do so without the blessing of their own bishop first, and only at the invitation of the Latin bishop [or delegate].

I do try to honor our tradition which generally maintains that a deacon receive a blessing everytime he serves or obtain a general blessing for a certain type of service from his bishop. I've never had my chancery yet tell me not to call them for guidance or a blessing to do something, and they usually appreciate knowing what the clergy are up to.

I can't answer your specific questions (I do have opinions of the excercise of economia in such cases), but surely your pastor or bishop can.

Actually any Latin priest who is to celebrate Mass publically outside of his own diocese that he has faculties for should make some notification to the diocese he is visiting as a courtesy which I don't think is excessive at all.

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#326632 - 07/04/09 10:06 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: ebed melech]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 6898
Loc: Kansas
Quote:
I think that there is a difference between infrequent participation in an event and more regular activities at a Latin parish.



Another problem I have found is that once you start accepting, the invitations themselves increase in frequency. I had to greatly eliminate most things except very select pro-life activities and some catechetical requests for the Latins related to Eastern Christianity to keep up with my own apostolate obligations.

I now try to get a service of our tradition added to the schedule when I am asked to do something (even for pro-life activities) rather than just be a Greek Catholic vestment ornament in an otherwise Latin liturgy.

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#326637 - 07/04/09 11:00 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Diak]
ebed melech Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 5151
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Fr. Deacon Randy,

Agreed. We are making an effort to do that at next years Catechetical conference for precisely this reason.

That said, I think the difficulty is that we need to be ready to help our Latin brothers and sisters come to know us better since this inevitably seems to be one dimension of our apostolate.

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#326638 - 07/05/09 12:25 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: ebed melech]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3557
Loc: Washington, PA
Originally Posted By: ebed melech
Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
The theology of marriage is differnt in the Byzantine and Latin Churches. In the Latin Church the copule is considered the minister of the sacrament, the priest/deacon is a witness for the Church and while they do impart a blessing it is not considered neccesary for validity. The Byzantine Church sees the priest as the minister of the sacrament and his blessing is necessary for validity. So if a Byzantine deacon presided over a Latin wedding ther would be no problem. If a Latin deacon presided over a Byzantine wedding it would be invalid.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Fr. Deacon Lance,

But from the quote provide by Crule above, it appears that Byzantine deacons should not celebrate Latin weddings even if they are granted bi-ritual faculties. Personally, I agree with such a thing. As I said before, I think the Latin understanding of the role of the deacon is largely disfigured (minimalistic in the Mass and presidential in Baptisms, Weddings and Funerals). Outside of mission situations and Typica services, a deacon, while vested with some power of governance, is not by nature presidential in the exercise of his ministry.

For my part, I have no plans to be involved in a Latin Catholic context in any way other then infrequent Catholic events like the ones mentioned above. It diffuses ones proper apostolic energies, not to mention the fact that one is ordained to serve one's bishop and his flock.


Agreed, but that instruction is but a few years old and it may have been that Eastern Deacons were doing this before it was issued.

My own involvement with the Latin Church has only been family/friends funerals/baptisms/weddings(not presiding).

Fr. Deacon Lance
_________________________
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

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#326673 - 07/06/09 02:27 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5269
Loc: Dublin
Naming no names, there was an interesting (and unintended) "test case" back in the nineteen-sixties, if memory serves me correctly. A certain Greek-Catholic Eparchy in the USA had a Deacon (celibate) who had completed his education for the priesthood, but the bishop kept postponing the ordination to the priesthood.

The Deacon had a close family member who was getting married, and naturally wanted the candidate to be ordained priest, so that he might do the wedding. The bishop was still hesitant to ordain the man - so the bishop attempted to "dispense" the Deacon and permit him to do the wedding, on the example of the Latins.

When these tidings reached Rome, the Holy See was not in the least amused, ruled that the wedding was invalid, and required the bishop to see to it that the wedding was done again, by a priest this time - and also required the bishop to "fish or cut bait" with the Deacon. The bishop swallowed hard, finally ordained the candidate to the priesthood, and blessed him to do the wedding.

Fr. Serge

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#326700 - 07/06/09 10:55 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
ebed melech Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 5151
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Fascinating, Father Serge! As always, you are a tremendous wealth of history, stories and insight!

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#326715 - 07/06/09 02:23 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: ebed melech]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5269
Loc: Dublin
I do my best - and it's nice to be appreciated. Now bring back the Emperor and petition him to award me the rank of Ecumenical Raconteur!

Fr. Serge

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#326721 - 07/06/09 03:52 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: griego catolico]
Krysostomos Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 68
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: griego catolico
Can a Byzantine Catholic deacon be asked to serve as one of the bishop's deacons?


Well - as a RC layman I have served as a ponomary the Orthodox Archmandrite in the monastery during the Liturgy...But I suppose this is a very different thing?!?

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#326742 - 07/06/09 06:32 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Krysostomos]
Pavel Ivanovich Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 2629
Loc: Western Australia
"The Sexton or Ponomar
The sexton designates a warden or a gatekeeper. The name sexton (ponomar) is derived from guardian (Gr. paramonarios, Ru. paramonar). Their duty in the ancient Church was mainly to be continually present at the holy places (Bethlehem - birthplace of the Savior, Golgotha and so forth), both for protecting them, and for the convenience of tourists. They also looked after the accessories of the temple: the utensils, the sacred vestments and other church property, they lit and put out the lamps at the divineservices. With the passage of time their duties included reading and singing during the divine services, bringing into the sanctuary altar-breads, wine, water, incense and flint, the preparation and giving the censer and the hot water to the priest-server, the cleaning of the church and the porch, the cleaning of the icons, the walls and the ceiling from dust and cobwebs, and finally, the calling of the believers to the divine services by ringing the bells from the middle of the bell-tower."

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#326848 - 07/08/09 02:57 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Pavel Ivanovich]
Krysostomos Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 68
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich
"The Sexton or Ponomar
They also looked after the accessories of the temple: the utensils, the sacred vestments and other church property, they lit and put out the lamps at the divineservices. With the passage of time their duties included reading and singing during the divine services, bringing into the sanctuary altar-breads, wine, water, incense and flint, the preparation and giving the censer and the hot water to the priest-server, the cleaning of the church and the porch, the cleaning of the icons, the walls and the ceiling from dust and cobwebs, and finally, the calling of the believers to the divine services by ringing the bells from the middle of the bell-tower."


Yep. That all I did when serving as a voluntary ponomary in the Holy Monastery of New Valaam (Uusi Valamo) in the 80´...Except singing and reading:_)

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