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#326433 - 07/01/09 07:07 PM Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass?
griego catolico Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 934
Loc: Sunny California
There are occasions in the Roman Catholic Church in which a bishop -who is the main celebrant of a Mass-has two deacons serving him at his side. These two deacons are sometimes termed as "the deacon of the Word" and "the deacon of the altar". They usually sit on either side of the bishop.

My questions are:

Can a Byzantine Catholic deacon be asked to serve as one of the bishop's deacons?

Could he do all the functions of a Roman deacon even though he does not have bi-ritual faculties?

If he has bi-ritual faculties, would he have to be vested as a Roman deacon or could he maintain being vested as Byzantine?

Thanks.

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#326437 - 07/01/09 08:35 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: griego catolico]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3769
Loc: Washington, PA
Yes.

Yes.

If bi-ritual, I suppose he would have his choice. If not, he would wear Byzantine vestments.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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#326439 - 07/01/09 10:33 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
StuartK Offline
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5760
Loc: Falls Church, VA
I was under the impression that a deacon really couldn't do anything unless he had the permission of his bishop.

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#326447 - 07/01/09 11:27 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: StuartK]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Registered: 08/29/98
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Permission for occasional concelebration is presumed. If one were to serve at a parish of another ritual Church on a regular basis this would need to approved.

Fr. Deacon Lance
_________________________
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

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#326465 - 07/02/09 09:09 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
ebed melech Offline
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Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 5153
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
Yes.

Yes.

If bi-ritual, I suppose he would have his choice. If not, he would wear Byzantine vestments.

Fr. Deacon Lance


I was told that deacons are by nature "omni-ritual," not that this dispenses one from asking permission of his bishop for more regular celebrations.

Certainly, anything presidential in nature (Baptism, Marriage, Benedictions) would require SOME sort of explicit permission by one's bishop and the Latin bishop.

Fr. Deacon Lance, I cannot recall...is there anything in Canon Law which addresses this issue?

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Daniel

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#326466 - 07/02/09 09:23 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: ebed melech]
Our Lady's slave Offline
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Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 5996
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Quote:

Certainly, anything presidential in nature (Baptism, Marriage, Benedictions) would require SOME sort of explicit permission by one's bishop and the Latin bishop.


This strikes me as curious since in the East a Deacon cannot join together a couple in Marriage .

Could a Deacon who has been ordained in the East perform such ceremonies/rites in the West which he can't do in his own Church ?

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#326467 - 07/02/09 09:41 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Our Lady's slave]
ebed melech Offline
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Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 5153
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Not without explicit permission, especially as it pertains to marriage. I'm told that such permission is RARELY if ever given.

The development of the presiding diaconate outside of mission situations (or where there is a dire lack of clergy) is a bit of an aberration in the tradition of the diaconate. It seems almost omnipresent in the Latin Church.

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#326469 - 07/02/09 10:12 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Our Lady's slave]
Diak Offline
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Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7122
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
Quote:
Could a Deacon who has been ordained in the East perform such ceremonies/rites in the West which he can't do in his own Church ?


Only with the permission of his bishop and at the invitation of the Latin bishop under whom he has been invited to serve.

Regarding the "omniritual" issue, we were instructed in our diaconal program by a canon lawyer that a Ukrainian Greek Catholic deacon can "assume" no service outside of that to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic bishop who has blessed his service and whose omophorion the deacon is under. Only his bishop can bless him for other service when that other service is requested. Bishop Basil (Losten) later reiterated that in another session. I do not consider myself "omniritual".

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#326472 - 07/02/09 11:41 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Diak]
Collin Nunis Offline
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Registered: 07/27/07
Posts: 597
Loc: Perth, Australia
Yes, if you're biritual, you can wear Roman vestments. If you're not, your Byzantine vestments are alright. If your bishop has a good working relationship with the Latin bishops vice-versa, an informal conversation on the phone would usually do the trick. Bishop-bishop relationships, especially if they work well together or are friends, is easy business. Nothing to worry about.

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#326504 - 07/02/09 11:25 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Diak]
ebed melech Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 5153
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Originally Posted By: Diak
Quote:
Could a Deacon who has been ordained in the East perform such ceremonies/rites in the West which he can't do in his own Church ?


Only with the permission of his bishop and at the invitation of the Latin bishop under whom he has been invited to serve.

Regarding the "omniritual" issue, we were instructed in our diaconal program by a canon lawyer that a Ukrainian Greek Catholic deacon can "assume" no service outside of that to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic bishop who has blessed his service and whose omophorion the deacon is under. Only his bishop can bless him for other service when that other service is requested. Bishop Basil (Losten) later reiterated that in another session. I do not consider myself "omniritual".


So if I participate in a Catholic catechetical conference I must contact my bishop to request specific permission to serve at the Mass with the local Latin ordinary? Or when I participated in the regional Mass at the National Shrine with a group I was escorting at the March for Life, I needed to contact my bishop to serve? Seems a bit excessive...such permission is not even required of priests.

I think that there is a difference between infrequent participation in an event and more regular activities at a Latin parish.

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#326570 - 07/03/09 10:38 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: ebed melech]
crule Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 143
Loc: The South
The USCCB have a diaconal handbook or publication on their website. If you dig deep enough in there it discusses bi-ritual deacons - and stated that even if an Eastern Catholic deacon were granted bi-ritual faculties, he is only to exercise those duties that are appropriate to his own rite...

Meaning that even if you are bi-ritual, you won't be doing any marriages, baptisms, or funerals in the Latin church you serve.

Here's the applicable quote from that document (p43):
Quote:
Bi-Ritual Permanent Deacons
When a permanent deacon of the Eastern Catholic Churches is
granted bi-ritual faculties to assist in the Roman Church, the theo-
logical understanding of the sacraments and the order of the dia-
conate in the Eastern Catholic Churches is to be respected.
Practically, a deacon of the Eastern Catholic Churches is not to be
allowed to solemnize marriages in the Roman Church.


This is from: http://www.usccb.org/deacon/DeaconDirectory.pdf

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#326585 - 07/04/09 06:51 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: crule]
Pavel Ivanovich Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 2788
Loc: Western Australia
I wonder what that does for Latin weddings presided over by Byzantine Rite deacons. I think a few people will be left wondering what implications this has on the marriage. It ahs happened that Byzantine Deacons ahve presided over wedding with the permission oo their bishop. I just wonder if they can't preside over a valid marrige ceremony in their own church, how do they suddenly get to do this validly, in a church they are not part of? I had not realised there was such a ruling, as mentioned above.

cool


Edited by Pavel Ivanovich (07/04/09 06:51 AM)

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#326596 - 07/04/09 11:36 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Pavel Ivanovich]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3769
Loc: Washington, PA
The theology of marriage is differnt in the Byzantine and Latin Churches. In the Latin Church the copule is considered the minister of the sacrament, the priest/deacon is a witness for the Church and while they do impart a blessing it is not considered neccesary for validity. The Byzantine Church sees the priest as the minister of the sacrament and his blessing is necessary for validity. So if a Byzantine deacon presided over a Latin wedding ther would be no problem. If a Latin deacon presided over a Byzantine wedding it would be invalid.

Fr. Deacon Lance
_________________________
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#326597 - 07/04/09 11:42 AM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Diak]
Apotheoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Diak
Regarding the "omniritual" issue, we were instructed in our diaconal program by a canon lawyer that a Ukrainian Greek Catholic deacon can "assume" no service outside of that to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic bishop who has blessed his service and whose omophorion the deacon is under. Only his bishop can bless him for other service when that other service is requested. Bishop Basil (Losten) later reiterated that in another session. I do not consider myself "omniritual".

I don't even like the idea of "bi-ritual" clergy, but this "omni-ritual" idea is even worse in my opinion.

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#326609 - 07/04/09 03:47 PM Re: Can a Byzantine deacon serve for a Roman bishop at Mass? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
ebed melech Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 5153
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
The theology of marriage is differnt in the Byzantine and Latin Churches. In the Latin Church the copule is considered the minister of the sacrament, the priest/deacon is a witness for the Church and while they do impart a blessing it is not considered neccesary for validity. The Byzantine Church sees the priest as the minister of the sacrament and his blessing is necessary for validity. So if a Byzantine deacon presided over a Latin wedding ther would be no problem. If a Latin deacon presided over a Byzantine wedding it would be invalid.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Fr. Deacon Lance,

But from the quote provide by Crule above, it appears that Byzantine deacons should not celebrate Latin weddings even if they are granted bi-ritual faculties. Personally, I agree with such a thing. As I said before, I think the Latin understanding of the role of the deacon is largely disfigured (minimalistic in the Mass and presidential in Baptisms, Weddings and Funerals). Outside of mission situations and Typica services, a deacon, while vested with some power of governance, is not by nature presidential in the exercise of his ministry.

For my part, I have no plans to be involved in a Latin Catholic context in any way other then infrequent Catholic events like the ones mentioned above. It diffuses ones proper apostolic energies, not to mention the fact that one is ordained to serve one's bishop and his flock.

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