The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
BrotherIsaac, SeekingLight, NoTrueScotsman, Soraya, CuriousMarten
5,759 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (Fr. Al, 1 invisible), 98 guests, and 56 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,045
Posts413,994
Members5,759
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by Terry Bohannon
Your whole argument is circumstancial. I can just as easily point to foreigners who favor the American system. Case in point, Pope Shenouda III. Why does he come to Cleveland Ohio for major treatment. He could just as easily use his connections to choose a British or a Canadian hospital, but he chooses an American hospital.


The Pope get treated in Ohio, not because American health care is better but for other reasons. From my understanding, the Pope' brother live in Ohio and the church leader likes to kill two birds with one stone: get medical treatment and visit family at the same time.

I.F.

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Do you think that he is inconfident in the treatment?

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
My point is that I have no idea why he gets treated in Ohio. Your statement that he gets treated in Ohio because the American health care system is better is a hypothesis on your part as is mine that he gets treated in Ohio because his brother lives there. Who really knows why gets treated in Ohio ?

I.F.

Last edited by Jean Francois; 07/10/09 08:30 PM.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
"Your statement that he gets treated in Ohio because the American health care system is better is a hypothesis..."

I did not make any such claim.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,632
Likes: 7
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,632
Likes: 7
Well, the World Health Organization (which one approaches carefully as one does all organizations) ranks the United States 1st in providing quality health care and Canada 7th. J.F. makes it sound like Pope Shenouda III condescended to accept American health care only because he happened to be visiting relatives. As a private pay patient he could get good health care in a number of countries, but I have no doubt he chose America purposely. He probably chose Cleveland over New York or Los Angeles because the relatives were there to help care for him.

That does not mean one cannot get decent health care in Canada - even with the many problems that system has. But it does help explain why those who can afford it come to the United States for health care - including those Canadians who either are denied care in Canada or who cannot tolerate the wait lists. The point is that the Canadian model of health care is too problematic to be used as a model. It has far more problems then our own and should not be copied.

We already have problems with socialized medicine here in the States. Don't forget the Oregon woman who was denied a cancer drug by the state but told she could get a suicide drug. Luckily one of the big pharmaceutical companies gave her the drug for free.

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Health care is an issue which President Obama will need to execute carefully. If he fails to make improvements he could be a first term president.

I do have a serious question about the proposal to spend billions if not a trillion or more on healthcare.

We do not have the money for this project. Foreign and domestic entities who buy American securities are fueling the credit line for our current deficit spending. What will happen to this said spending if America's credit runs dry?

Terry

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,632
Likes: 7
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,632
Likes: 7
The finances are a major problem that those proposing socialized health care don’t seem to want to address. Socialized anything costs more then private anything. The government simply has no incentive to run anything efficiently. It’s almost impossible to fire workers who don’t produce and no one wants their health care run with the efficiency of the long lines at the Department of Motor Vehicles. But there are major hurdles ahead. We are an aging society. The number of elderly is going to double and the elderly are the largest consumers of health care services (maybe President Obama sees rationing as a way to kill off the elderly to save money?). Add in the skyrocketing costs of paying social security and anyone can see a major financial crisis looms. And if the global warming folks foster off bad science and manage to raise taxes on utilities on the average family by $1,000 to eventually $4,000 a year there is a disaster in the making. Obama's rationing is not the answer.

The way forward is to keep the government out of health care as much as possible. Socialized medicine gives the State great power over the individual – a power government should not have. It leads to people becoming dependent upon the State (children, if you will) which fairly quickly destroys a society.

Further, in a socialized health care system the doctors, nurses, staff and other workers all need to be paid regularly no matter what, so the only way to cut costs is to ration care. In the United States, under the capitalist portion of our health care it is in the doctor’s best interest to heal you as soon as possible or he looses a patient to another doctor who will treat the patient with the proper care.

One Canadian commenter likes to opine that in Canada the wait list for a room in the maternity ward is 10 months. biggrin

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
I'm told that in Poland the waiting list is now three years!

Fr. Serge

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Jean Francois
The medical profession is to a large degree a racket. Medical doctors are not PhD graduates. Medical professional have a bachelor degree in Medicine and the title Doctor is simply an honorific from a bygone era. In other words, physicians earn 'glorified bachelor of science degrees' with some on site training.


And a *very* recent bygone era at that.

The MD was designed to borrow the respect & prestige of the doctors of the universities, who, unlike the medical providers of the time, didn't kill very many people (although *some* faculty spats could lead to that smile )

I giggle at their, "I'm a *real* doctor spiel." No, they're not (with some notable exceptions). A doctor has, for thousands of years, been one who acquired significant knowledge *AND* contributed to that body of knowledge. Most MD's have never done the latter.

I'd quaffle some at the equating their training to a bachelor's degree--the two years of coursework past the bachelor's is at a graduate level.

While I'm at it, the problem isn't just (or even) keeping out the foreign trained physicians. It's the stranglehold on the entry to medical school, the artificially small number of them, and the size of their classes. If lawyer's tried to pull that nonsense, the better qualified of the non-admitted would sue, successfully, for the restraint of trade and monopolistic behavior. [The real pity here is that there *are* two many lawyers, and two much legal work being done, and that society would be better off if a fourth year were added to law school for the sole purpose of reducing the number of lawyer's produced frown ]

hawk, one-time recovering lawyer who is back off the wagon, and also a real doctor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Terry Bohannon
From the business end, it would not make much sense to compensate employees for "health benefits" if it costs them and the employee more up front to do so than the public option. Right now insurance is tax exempt, but they are talking about getting rid of that exemption to "help pay for the public option".


Today's employer-provided health care system is a leftover of WWII wage and price controls--since salaries could not be raised to recruit or retain, non-cash compensation became common, and now expected.

hawk

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
ObamaCare will effectively eliminate abortion in the United States, because the waiting time for the procedure will be ten months.

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 84
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 84
I'm not so sure about that. When Obama was in the Illinois state legislature he opposed legislation to protect babies who survive abortion. He has had absolutely no problem murdering the child who survived abortion. The euphemism they use is "post-natal abortion."

He also appointed John Holden to be his population/science czar. Holden openly advocates that the U.S. government should spike the domestic water supply with drugs that will sterilize people (in certain neighborhoods). He also supports forced abortions and wrote a book in which he recommends an "armed international organization, a global analogue of a police force" to make sure couples do not have more then the number of children authorized by the government. But of course during the confirmation hearings all of a sudden he no longer believed in those things.

President Obama has made clear that abortion is a human right and WILL BE FULLY FUNDED UNDER OBAMA CARE.

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
"ObamaCare will effectively eliminate abortion in the United States, because the waiting time for the procedure will be ten months."

Are you joking?

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Quote
Are you joking?


I merely point out that in all socialized health care systems, getting to see a doctor begins to resemble Waiting for Godot. If a person with cancer has to wait six months to begin radiation therapy in Canada, if people in need of hip replacement surgery go for years on the waiting list, if women have to deliver their own babies because no delivery room is available at the hospital, what makes anyone think there won't be long lines and waiting lists to get an abortion.

Short answer--Yes, Terry, I was joking. Sheesh!!!

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Well, I thought you heard something I missed...and I hadn't had my coffee yet.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5