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Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: Apotheoun] #327586 07/15/09 09:07 PM
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I do not disagree with Apotheoun. The concepts of primacy and conciliarity must be held in dynamic tension within the Church. Without primacy, there is no focus of unity, nothing to counteract the centrifugal forces which tend to pull Churches apart. Without conciliarity, primacy degenerates into tyranny. We should look to Canon of the Holy Apostles No.34 as our model in this.

I also agree that there can be no submission or subordination of one Church to another, for the Church is a typos of the Trinity, and within the Trinity, there is hierarchy without subordination. The Father is not greater than the Son or the Spirit, for all are equally God. Yet each recognizes the status the others and defers to them according to their gifts. The early Church never used the term potestas to refer to primacy, which rather was based upon auctoritas and caritas.

Some Catholics denigrate the idea of a "primacy of honor", associating it with meaningless ceremonial positions (like the Lord Mayor of London), and on the other hand, many Orthodox would prefer to interpret "primacy of honor" in just that way. But if we place ourselves in the context of late antiquity, in a culture of honor, then such a primacy has real attributes even without the legalistic foundation of "jurisdiction". Rome, as the Church with Priority, had auctoritas; the Pope, as the head of that Church, was its visible manifestation. When the Pope of Rome spoke, others listened, and disagreed only with the gravest trepidation. By the same token, no other bishop, not even Western ones, considered themselves to be subordinate to the Pope. St. Cyprian, for instance, rejected the notion of the Pope as "heir of Peter" and Vicar of Christ", because the keys handed to Peter were given on behalf of all the Disciples, and the Apostolic charism has passed down to their successors as the Episcopal charism: all bishops are equally Vicars of Christ, all wield the power of the keys.

And that is how it stood for most of the Patristic era, the various attempts of the Popes of Rome to impose their will upon the rest of the Church being rebuffed in various ways right down to the advent of the reformed Papacy of the eleventh century. Until the ascent of those German Popes, who knew nothing of the Eastern Churches and cared even less, whatever the Popes may have thought of their own prerogatives, they put the unity of the Church above everything else, their own ministry at the service of the Church and not vice versa.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #327587 07/15/09 09:09 PM
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Some clarification on the words of Institution and the Anaphora of the Assyrian Church. I don't know who the author of the blog is, but he makes the point that Rome states that it holds to the necessity of the words of Institution, and that the Anaphora in question contains those words in a scattered, incoherent manner.


Consult Father Taft on the matter. It will be educational.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: StuartK] #327589 07/15/09 09:13 PM
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Apotheoun Offline
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Originally Posted by StuartK
. . . because the keys handed to Peter were given on behalf of all the Disciples, and the Apostolic charism has passed down to their successors as the Episcopal charism: all bishops are equally Vicars of Christ, all wield the power of the keys.

Yes, I agree. The bishops throughout the whole world are the successors of the Apostles, i.e., of all the Apostles, which necessarily includes St. Peter. Nevertheless, the historic primacy is held by only three sees (Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch), but that historical primacy cannot be used to divide the unity of the episcopate, which is sacramentally one and the same in every see.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #327594 07/15/09 09:33 PM
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On the issue of primacy, we see, in the Gospels, times where Our Lord speaks only to Peter, and not the Apostles, such as in the Gospel of John: "feed my lambs", "tend my sheep", "feed my sheep".

Then we have "Thou art Peter (Kephas), and upon this Rock (Kephas), I will build my Church." While Protestant (and some Orthodox) apologists will focus on the Greek version of "Petros", which allows for the interpretation of either a solid rock, or a piece of the Rock (the latter to stress the entire group of Apostles, as opposed to just Peter), the original Aramaic of "Kephas" only allows for the interpretation of "solid rock", the implication that the Church is built on Peter. The only question for today is, as John Paul II has taught, how does Peter's successor carry out this primacy, and not whether there is one. I would argue that while the Papal Primacy of Jurisdiction is to be upheld, it is to be exercised in a way which upholds the very Catholic notion of the "principal of subsidiarity". In other words, very little should rise to the point where it is a matter of Papal concern. That's why, in addition to the Pope of Rome, we have Patriarchs, Metropolitans, Archbishops, Bishops, parish priests, and deacons in the hierarchical structure of Church governance.

Dn. Robert

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #327596 07/15/09 09:43 PM
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Now we are in old, well-trod territory again, and I doubt there is any profit to be had going over it, again.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: StuartK] #327597 07/15/09 10:10 PM
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Apotheoun Offline
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Originally Posted by StuartK
Now we are in old, well-trod territory again, and I doubt there is any profit to be had going over it, again.

Yes, it would probably be an utter waste of time.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: Diak] #327604 07/15/09 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Diak
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Stuart, tell me: do you consider the Orthodox and Catholic Churches to be equally true


Perhaps referring your question to recent statements by the Magisterium would be appropriate; Unitatis Redintegratio is quite clear on this:
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All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church.

If it is part of the "full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church" as the Church herself teaches, your question is nonsensical.


The Holy See has clarified to death what that means. This but the latest:

RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH

Some quotes:

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It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.[10]

and

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FOURTH QUESTION

Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term “Church” in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?

RESPONSE

The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. “Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all – because of the apostolic succession – the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds”[13], they merit the title of “particular or local Churches”[14], and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches.[15]

“It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature”.[16] However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches.[17]

On the other hand, because of the division between Christians, the fullness of universality, which is proper to the Church governed by the Successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him, is not fully realised in history.[18]


Now, I don't think you'll agree that the Vatican is correct in these. I have no illusions that this is going to change your opinion or that of anyone else on this forum. However, I just wanted to point out that it is not exactly an official teaching of the Catholic Church (conceived as the communion of Churches that maintain full and visible communion with Rome) that it and the Orthodox Church are on the same level. You may disagree with it, but I don't think you have the right to dismiss as "nonsensical" a question that is based precisely on this "official" view, unless one can consider what the Popes think on this matter as inconsequential and nonsensical.

It is one thing to disagree with what the Holy See says. It is another thing to refuse to acknowledge that what it says is indeed what it says, or that it has given its own viewpoint regarding the meaning of Vatican II.

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 07/15/09 11:20 PM.
Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: Apotheoun] #327605 07/15/09 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Nevertheless, the historic primacy is held by only three sees (Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch), but that historical primacy cannot be used to divide the unity of the episcopate, which is sacramentally one and the same in every see.

Yes, Pope Saint Gregory the Great teaches that the Petrine ministry and The Keys are held equally and in unity by the three ancient Sees of Rome, Alexandria and Antioch.

Pope Saint Gregory wrote to Pope Eulogius of Alexandria and he is strong in his assertion that all three Bishops of Rome and Antioch and Alexandria are equally Petrine and of one authority with the same Petrine prerogatives...

If I may bring Pope Gregory's text onto the Forum...

Gregory of Rome to Eulogius of Alexandria:

"Your most sweet Holiness [Eulogius of Alexandria] has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, Prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy, not only in the dignity of such as preside, but even in the number of such as stand. But I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter's chair who occupies Peter's chair.

"And, though special honour to myself in no wise delights me, yet I greatly rejoiced because you, most holy ones, have given to yourselves what you have bestowed upon me.

"For who can be ignorant that holy Church has been made firm in the solidity of the Prince of the apostles, who derived his name from the firmness of his mind, so as to be called Petrus from petra. And to him it is said by the voice of the Truth, To you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven Matthew 16:19. And again it is said to him, And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren (xxii. 32). And once more, Simon, son of Jonas, do you love Me? Feed my sheep John 21:17.

"Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one . For he himself exalted the See in which he deigned even to rest and end the present life [Rome]. He himself adorned the See to which he sent his disciple as evangelist [Alexandria]. He himself established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years [Antioch]. Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside,

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360207040.htm

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: Apotheoun] #327606 07/15/09 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Philippe Gebara
Can the Pope's infallibility and primate of jurisdicion be acceptable by Eastern Catholics . . .

As an Eastern Catholic I reject both points.


Thank you for the very clear answer.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: StuartK] #327607 07/15/09 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
In a conversation with another acquaintance, also a Roman Catholic traditionalist, I was accused of the heresy of "Zoghbyism". I rather like the sound of that. Maybe write a book about it: Touts Zogbyistes?


Why not? In fact it might be a good exercise.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: StuartK] #327608 07/15/09 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
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Stuart, tell me: do you consider the Orthodox and Catholic Churches to be equally true
?

I consider the Latin Church to be the continuation of the undivided Church in the West. I consider the Orthodox Churches to be the continuation of the undivided Church in the East. I consider that both have maintained the fullness of the Apostolic Tradition, each in accordance with its own unique modes of expression, worship, spirituality, theology, doctrine and discipline. Both, therefore, are equally true, but neither has the right to impose its own Tradition upon the other.


I'm actually wondering if this might be true. Look carefully into my statements and you will see that I have always avoided denying this. My questions -- if you will read the totality of them carefully enough (but then that is too onerous) revolve on but one point: in a situation where the Pope of Rome has repeatedly denied this very point, what should the ecclesial ramifications be?

Ok, I do not expect an answer. I am just stating my point, perhaps for the last time in this thread. I'm sure that we all have better things to do.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: asianpilgrim] #327609 07/15/09 11:38 PM
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in a situation where the Pope of Rome has repeatedly denied this very point, what should the ecclesial ramifications be?


The issue is rather moot, because the Catholic Church as a whole has affirmed it. But assuming, for some reason, he did deny it, then his opinion would have to be evaluated and would have no weight until it was received by the entire Church. And since such a statement would not be true, and reception is nothing less than the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, passing through the Body of Christ, such reception would not be forthcoming.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: asianpilgrim] #327623 07/16/09 02:35 AM
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Too busy living it. Maybe when I'm done.

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: StuartK] #327846 07/18/09 11:22 AM
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papal infallbility was defined at the council of the first vatican council, therefor anyone who calls themselve a "Catholic," of any rite,latin or eastern is bound to this doctrine.

http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm

Re: Infallibility and Primate of Jurisdicion - acceptable by EC? [Re: Mateusz] #327847 07/18/09 11:33 AM
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Chapter 1 On the institution of the apostolic primacy in blessed Peter

We teach and declare that,
according to the gospel evidence,
a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole church of God
was immediately and directly
promised to the blessed apostle Peter and
conferred on him by Christ the lord.
[PROMISED]
It was to Simon alone,
to whom he had already said
You shall be called Cephas [42] ,
that the Lord,
after his confession, You are the Christ, the son of the living God,
spoke these words:
Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the underworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [43] .

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