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Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Nelson Chase] #327740 07/17/09 02:10 AM
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IgnatiusBenedict Offline
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I'm a Roman Catholic and I love the Byzantine Rites in both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. Members of those Churches are 100% as Catholic as Latins are. The Pope even said in one of his documents.

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: IgnatiusBenedict] #327741 07/17/09 03:01 AM
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chadrook Offline
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I want to hear from some of you what you think about the view of the traditional Orthodox on this subject. When we think of the the latin church we usually see it as pre-frankish domination (western Orthodox) and post or Latin. John Romanides wrote a book on this subject. I dont see how the uniates will bridge the gap between us when it sounds like they dont even fully accept the one church one faith concept.Not trying to be rude I just dont have any other way of putting it.
Chad

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Apotheoun] #327748 07/17/09 08:27 AM
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Irish Melkite Offline
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I would hate to see this forum become another Catholic Answers "Eastern Catholicism" forum.


Amen!


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: chadrook] #327823 07/18/09 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by chadrook
I want to hear from some of you what you think about the view of the traditional Orthodox on this subject. When we think of the the latin church we usually see it as pre-frankish domination (western Orthodox) and post or Latin. John Romanides wrote a book on this subject. I dont see how the uniates will bridge the gap between us when it sounds like they dont even fully accept the one church one faith concept.Not trying to be rude I just dont have any other way of putting it.
Chad


Some of these "traditional" Orthodox do not accept the Eastern and Orientals as having one faith, as some hierarchs within both jurisdictions claim. Some of these traditionalists within Eastern Orthodoxy also only consider Serbia and Jerusalem as truely Orthodox.. and others on that fringe would say not even those two, since they are in union with the "modernist" Orthodox.. As to Oriental "traditionalists", they insist that only they are in the true church, sometimes excluding their own Patriarch (for being too "ecumenical" - e.g. dialogue with the West -- Eastern Orthodox and Catholics)

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Michael_Thoma] #327828 07/18/09 03:27 AM
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asianpilgrim Offline OP
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Some of these traditionalists within Eastern Orthodoxy also only consider Serbia and Jerusalem as truely Orthodox..


That sounds similar to the de facto position of ROCOR prior to 2007, although there was actually a time when ROCOR broke contact with Serbia as well, while its relationships with Jerusalem were complicated and not always consistent. Of course, ROCOR has since then restored communion with the seven other Orthodox Patriarchates and the six other autocephalous Orthodox Churches. It is my understanding that the splinter groups from ROCOR as well as all the Greek Orthodox Old Calendarists are now unanimous in rejecting the Orthodoxy of Serbia and Jerusalem. I am aware, though, that some Old Calendarists considered Jerusalem to be Orthodox up to the time of Patriarch Diodoros I.

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Administrator] #327829 07/18/09 03:36 AM
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asianpilgrim Offline OP
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You can't reject papal infallibility and papal universal jurisdiction outright. They both existed in the first millennium when the Church was undivided. Much better to accept them as they were then, and call for a re-look at them for a united Church


I think that this is precisely the position behind John Paul II / Ut Unum Sint's call for a reexamination of the ways by which papal authority is exercised -- not a denial of either beliefs, but a call to reexamine their practical application. For now, I uphold this position in public.

In a more peaceful and less roiled Catholic Church, a heavily decentralized system of governance would be ideal, perhaps even with new Patriarchates in Asia and Africa and Latin America (the latter was aleady being discussed in the 16th century), local synods of bishops, and more authoritative national Primatial Sees. However, at the present time, Roman centralization is probably all that keeps a lot of local Latin-Rite Churches from going the way of The Episcopal Church (TEC).

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 07/18/09 03:40 AM.
Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Irish Melkite] #327831 07/18/09 03:44 AM
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asianpilgrim Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I would hate to see this forum become another Catholic Answers "Eastern Catholicism" forum.


Amen!


I don't see any danger of that happening.

Mind you, when the new moderator of the "Eastern Catholicism" forum (called at that time the "Eastern Christianity" forum) came in to "massacre" the old denizens of the thread and to censor entire threads and hundreds of postings, many, many of my own posts (especially those that praised the Orthodox martyrs of the 20th century and the licitness of venerating some Orthodox saints) were among those censored. It was for that reason that I scarcely participate there anymore.

And in ByzCath I am considered to be an out-and-out Latinizer.

Ah, the ironies of life...

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 07/18/09 03:48 AM.
Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: asianpilgrim] #327833 07/18/09 04:42 AM
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Roman centralization is probably all that keeps a lot of local Latin-Rite Churches from going the way of The Episcopal Church (TEC).

I would not want to wager the house on that statement...especially in California

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Jakub.] #327834 07/18/09 05:44 AM
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Asian,

As Abp Alypi once said "There are Serbs and there are Serbs" this was in responce to the revalation of the Serbian church being full of masons as I discovered in the 90s. But fear not because there is the TOC-Serbia to carry the lamp of Orthodoxy.

When it comes to ROCOR I was never a part of it but was a member of ROCA. Yes there was a big differnce. I remember when ROCA was the standard for Orthodoxy. Jordanville prayerbook was the standard for all english speaking Orthodox regardless of jurisdiction. Dr. Claders arrangements can be found everywhere.Rassaphore-monk Laurence from Holy Trinity was the standard for translation from slavonic. All surplanted now by ROCOR and ambitious priest with the new way.

To see it from the outside you might not notice but to be a part of it and watch history be re-written like some Stalin era news article it drove many from the church and put others like Abp Alypi into obscurity.What happened to ROCA was put in motion a long time ago and finally came to full bloom.
Chad

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Jakub.] #327838 07/18/09 06:39 AM
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Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

As a lover of the East, and a Latin Rite Catholic I want to say something. I understand that there is sensitivity felt on the part of Latins on reading some posts on the site, but likewise I also understand that which Eastern Catholics and Orthodox may feel as well, the knife cuts both ways so to speak. It is at times highly unlikely that someone will not be hurt at some point comments made here or there regarding the various differences between Rites etc. I only hope the this site which has inspired me to love the East more as a Latin and try to educate my fellow Latins on the existence and beauty of the East, does not result in more comments that could be potentially hurtful. I hope I have not offended anyone with my candor, if I have I sincerely apologize and pray that all may be at peace.

In Christ,

IHG

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: chadrook] #327839 07/18/09 07:45 AM
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I think we should shy away from the term "uniates" as I feel, and others may also feel, that is a derogatory term.

I think we accept the One Church, One Faith concept. They way the Western and Eastern Catholic Churches live out that faith is different and diverse in some respects but we are united in Communion and grow from each other’s different perspectives on the one Church of Christ. I like to think of us Eastern Catholics as showing that you can be an Eastern Christian and hold to the Orthodox faith and be in Communion with the Church of Rome. (Most non-Catholic Easterners may disagree, which they are free to do so) I have learned to live my faith more deeply by being in communion with the Western Church, its not perfect at times, since I am separated from my brother Orthodox and misunderstood at times by my western Catholic brothers but it does work and we add to the richness of the one Church of Christ.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 07/18/09 07:53 AM.
Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: christos_anesti] #327840 07/18/09 07:47 AM
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I admire and respect your candor, since it is said out of general love for your brothers and sisters in Christ. I think thats the important thing for us to remember- we can be faithful to our own theological beliefs and disagree but we can still love each us as Christ wants us to.

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Jakub.] #327843 07/18/09 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Jakub.
Roman centralization is probably all that keeps a lot of local Latin-Rite Churches from going the way of The Episcopal Church (TEC).

I would not want to wager the house on that statement...especially in California


Well, at least they aren't ordaining women in public yet, and most likely not in private either.

In the Netherlands I've heard that gay "marriages" are openly conducted in some Catholic churches, but these do not have the sanction of the Ordinary of the place.

Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Nelson Chase] #327926 07/20/09 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
I think we should shy away from the term "uniates" as I feel, and others may also feel, that is a derogatory term.


I might point out that the term is strictly verboten on the Orthodox Christianity forum. Ironic, isn't it?


Re: Open Letter to ByzCath [Re: Administrator] #327938 07/20/09 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Administrator
I'd be careful about rejecting things. Much better to offer a more specific theology that puts them in a better perspective.

Pope Paul VI ranked the councils after the Seven Ecumenical Council as "General Councils in the West". Not ecumenical in the same way as were the Seven. Valid, but many / most not affecting the life of the Church in the East.

You can't reject papal infallibility and papal universal jurisdiction outright. They both existed in the first millennium when the Church was undivided. Much better to accept them as they were then, and call for a re-look at them for a united Church (as did Pope John Paul the Great).


Well said, John. I have often thought of the first seven councils as exercising a "primacy of honor" within the conciliar tradition of the Church due to their antiquity, ecumenicity and relationship to the central tenets of the Faith regarding Christ and the Holy Trinity. Within the first seven, the first four appear to have even greater weight, being compared to the Four Gospels by St. Gregory the Great, I believe.

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